Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #815
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST          Thursday, October 25 2001          Volume 01 : Number 815

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:57:46 -0700
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] .biz injunction dissolved

http://www.lextext.com/icann/index.html

The domains previously covered under the injunction can now go live,
since the plaintiffs were unable to come up with the court order bond
the court required as a condition of the injunction.

- -- 
Best regards,
William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Userfriendly.com Domains
The most advanced domain lookup tool on the net
DNS Services from $1.65/mo

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:14:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: James Love <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Songbird in the BC?

How many constituencies can you belong to?  I thought it was just one.
Jamie

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Eric Dierker wrote:

> The following is one of the finest examples of elitist crap one can find.  I can
> just see this - Old chap smoking a fancy pipe while directing his boy to clean
> his eight iron,  "but of course anyone can join the club old boyo,  Oh and by
> the way here is a statement regards ISPs my barrister drew up for your ignorant
> understanding"
> 
> Get a grip Crispin your elitist days are numbered.  Tell us about the Yacht Club
> deal.  Tell us about your consultancy with ICANN - how about a financial
> disclosure?
> 
> Better yet disclose your relationship with the executive committee of our BoD.
> Is there a stipend that the GA could use associated with such services.  While
> Roberts tells us that ICANN cannot support a GA or an AL tell us how much they
> afford on your services.  And you are a member of two Constituencies?
> 
> Come clean or drop your comments Mr. lonely bird.  I used to think that what you
> do is your business but now I see that you take money that could allow
> individual users a voice on the Internet.  I hope you sleep well.
> 
> Quite Sincerely,
> Eric
> 
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:34:38PM -0400, [email-masked] wrote:
> > > Jefsey, you indicated that Songbird recently became a member of the
> > > business constituency.  The Songbird website
> > > http://songbird.com/songbird/index.html seems to indicate that the
> > > company is primarily an ISP.
> >
> > ISP's, by the definition used in the ISP and BC constituency,
> > fundamentally provide internet connectivity to end users.  Songbird does
> > not provide internet connectivity to anyone.  Instead, Songbird's
> > services are limited to website hosting, design, development, and
> > consulting.  Entities that provide these services are sometimes loosely
> > referred to as ISPs, because the term "ISP" is used differently by
> > different people.  But as it is used in ICANN, Songbird is not an ISP.
> > (There is another term common in the business, "Internet Presence
> > Provider").
> >
> > > How then can it be a full member of the BC
> > > instead of merely an admitted observer?
> >
> > You could have figured this out yourself, but of course that would not
> > serve your purpose.
> >
> > > BC Charter:  "Legally recognized for-profit business enterprises that have
> > > been in business for less than one year and companies whose predominant
> > > business is to be a registry, a registrar or an ISP cannot have full
> > > membership status, but may become observers."
> > >
> > > I seems that Kent has developed the knack of being in a number of
> > > constituencies simultaneously while the rest of us remain unrepresented.
> > > Interesting.
> >
> > Yes, it is interesting.  It proves that the claims that you and others
> > make about being unrepresented are simply bogus noise.  Anyone who
> > seriously wants to participate can do so.
> >
> > --
> > Kent Crispin                               "Be good, and you will be
> > [email-masked]                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
> > --
> > This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> > Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> > ("unsubscribe ga-full" in the body of the message).
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> 
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> 

- -- 
- --------------------------
James Love, Consumer Project on Technology, http://www.cptech.org
[email-masked], v. 1.202.387.8030, f 1.202.234.5176

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:43:37 -0700
From: Roeland Meyer <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Songbird in the BC?

|> From: Kent Crispin [mailto:[email-masked]]
|> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:18 PM

|> Yes, it is interesting.  It proves that the claims that you 
|> and others
|> make about being unrepresented are simply bogus noise.  Anyone who
|> seriously wants to participate can do so.

Then why was New.Net rejected by both the RC and the BC? Why can't MHSC join
either RC or BC?
If you are going to make the point that MHSC never tried, on both counts,
you'd be right. I believe the charters as they were written and recognise an
unwelcome mat when I see one. Unlike some I know, I won't lie just to join a
club.

As far as the NCDNHC goes, I distinctly remember your application ... was it
the "Del Valle yacht club", or something like that? Not that I'd ever accuse
you of joining them under false pretenses ...  We never did make that lunch
date at the "Lemon Grass" and too bad that "New Malley's" has changed
ownership. Pham got tired of working 14x7 shifts. He was the best sushi chef
in the Livermore valley, IMHO. The new place is way expensive and not as
good. How about coffee at "Panama Bay"? Their Sumatra roast is pretty good.
It can't be tomorrow though, I have to go the the 4J's seminar at the Oracle
campus in Redwood Shores.

Claims that all domain name holders are represented, in the names council,
are simply bogus noise. That is a fact that was established and recognized
years ago. You know, I'm really glad to see you post here. That usually is
an indicator that a measure is starting gain some serious traction.
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:54:33 -0700
From: Roeland Meyer <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Songbird in the BC?

Technically, one can join as many constituencies as will put up with you.
Legally, one only has to spend a few hundred bucks on some paper. BTW, MHSC
has been my sole source of support since 1997. Yet, it does not qualify for
the BC. OTOH, Mr. Crispin is employed by LLNL.GOV. How he gets into the
DNSO/BC is beyond my meager understanding. AFAIK, he does not run a business
and his songbird is strictly a hobby.

- --
R O E L A N D  M J  M E Y E R
Managing Director
Morgan Hill Software Company
http://www.mhsc.com

|> -----Original Message-----
|> From: James Love [mailto:[email-masked]]
|> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:15 PM
|> To: [email-masked]
|> Cc: Kent Crispin; [email-masked]
|> Subject: Re: [ga] Songbird in the BC?
|> 
|> 
|> How many constituencies can you belong to?  I thought it was 
|> just one.
|> Jamie
|> 
|> 
|> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Eric Dierker wrote:
|> 
|> > The following is one of the finest examples of elitist 
|> crap one can find.  I can
|> > just see this - Old chap smoking a fancy pipe while 
|> directing his boy to clean
|> > his eight iron,  "but of course anyone can join the club 
|> old boyo,  Oh and by
|> > the way here is a statement regards ISPs my barrister drew 
|> up for your ignorant
|> > understanding"
|> > 
|> > Get a grip Crispin your elitist days are numbered.  Tell 
|> us about the Yacht Club
|> > deal.  Tell us about your consultancy with ICANN - how 
|> about a financial
|> > disclosure?
|> > 
|> > Better yet disclose your relationship with the executive 
|> committee of our BoD.
|> > Is there a stipend that the GA could use associated with 
|> such services.  While
|> > Roberts tells us that ICANN cannot support a GA or an AL 
|> tell us how much they
|> > afford on your services.  And you are a member of two 
|> Constituencies?
|> > 
|> > Come clean or drop your comments Mr. lonely bird.  I used 
|> to think that what you
|> > do is your business but now I see that you take money that 
|> could allow
|> > individual users a voice on the Internet.  I hope you sleep well.
|> > 
|> > Quite Sincerely,
|> > Eric
|> > 
|> > Kent Crispin wrote:
|> > 
|> > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:34:38PM -0400, 
|> [email-masked] wrote:
|> > > > Jefsey, you indicated that Songbird recently became a 
|> member of the
|> > > > business constituency.  The Songbird website
|> > > > http://songbird.com/songbird/index.html seems to 
|> indicate that the
|> > > > company is primarily an ISP.
|> > >
|> > > ISP's, by the definition used in the ISP and BC constituency,
|> > > fundamentally provide internet connectivity to end 
|> users.  Songbird does
|> > > not provide internet connectivity to anyone.  Instead, Songbird's
|> > > services are limited to website hosting, design, development, and
|> > > consulting.  Entities that provide these services are 
|> sometimes loosely
|> > > referred to as ISPs, because the term "ISP" is used 
|> differently by
|> > > different people.  But as it is used in ICANN, Songbird 
|> is not an ISP.
|> > > (There is another term common in the business, "Internet Presence
|> > > Provider").
|> > >
|> > > > How then can it be a full member of the BC
|> > > > instead of merely an admitted observer?
|> > >
|> > > You could have figured this out yourself, but of course 
|> that would not
|> > > serve your purpose.
|> > >
|> > > > BC Charter:  "Legally recognized for-profit business 
|> enterprises that have
|> > > > been in business for less than one year and companies 
|> whose predominant
|> > > > business is to be a registry, a registrar or an ISP 
|> cannot have full
|> > > > membership status, but may become observers."
|> > > >
|> > > > I seems that Kent has developed the knack of being in 
|> a number of
|> > > > constituencies simultaneously while the rest of us 
|> remain unrepresented.
|> > > > Interesting.
|> > >
|> > > Yes, it is interesting.  It proves that the claims that 
|> you and others
|> > > make about being unrepresented are simply bogus noise.  
|> Anyone who
|> > > seriously wants to participate can do so.
|> > >
|> > > --
|> > > Kent Crispin                               "Be good, and 
|> you will be
|> > > [email-masked]                           lonesome." 
|> -- Mark Twain
|> > > --
|> > > This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
|> > > Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
|> > > ("unsubscribe ga-full" in the body of the message).
|> > > Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
|> > 
|> > --
|> > This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
|> > Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
|> > ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
|> > Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
|> > 
|> > 
|> 
|> -- 
|> --------------------------
|> James Love, Consumer Project on Technology, http://www.cptech.org
|> [email-masked], v. 1.202.387.8030, f 1.202.234.5176
|> 
|> --
|> This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
|> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
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|> 
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:07:05 +1000
From: "Dassa" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: [ga] Songbird in the BC?

|> -----Original Message-----
|> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of
|> William X Walsh
|> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:49 PM
|> To: Kent Crispin
|> Cc: [email-masked]
|> Subject: Re[2]: [ga] Songbird in the BC?
|
|> Actually, IAP and IPP differentiate internet access/infrastructure
|> providers and Internet Presence Providers, but both are generally
|> accepted as "Internet Service Providers."
|>
|> The ISP constituency should permit the membership of IPP's. They
|> represent the single largest channel for the origination of domain
|> name registrations, which they handle on behalf of their user base,
|> and thus have a direct and compelling interest and stake in the DNS
|> process.

I often get asked what sort of business DHS International is in.  I tell
them we are an ISP.  My reasons for this are we provide services on the
Internet and although we do not supply connectivity for our users we do
assist with connectivity to them.  DHS provides domain/hostname services.

Darryl (Dassa) Lynch.

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:52:09 +1300
From: Joop Teernstra <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: [ga] Songbird in the BC?

At 22:48 24/10/01 -0700, William X Walsh wrote:

>The ISP constituency should permit the membership of IPP's.

It should indeed.
Either the ISP or the Registrar constituency should take them in, if they 
cannot create a constituency of their own.

>  They
>represent the single largest channel for the origination of domain
>name registrations, which they handle on behalf of their user base,
>and thus have a direct and compelling interest and stake in the DNS
>process.

That should get these people out of the Individual Registrants' 
constituency where they do not really belong and which they may try to 
subvert for their own interests.

>--
>Best regards,
>William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
>Userfriendly.com Domains
>The most advanced domain lookup tool on the net
>DNS Services from $1.65/mo

See my point?

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:49:36 -0700
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[3]: [ga] Songbird in the BC?

Thursday, Thursday, October 25, 2001, 12:52:09 AM, Joop Teernstra wrote:

>>  They
>>represent the single largest channel for the origination of domain
>>name registrations, which they handle on behalf of their user base,
>>and thus have a direct and compelling interest and stake in the DNS
>>process.

> That should get these people out of the Individual Registrants' 
> constituency where they do not really belong and which they may try to 
> subvert for their own interests.

Your paranoid fantasy of capture doesn't hold out in the facts, Joop.

Much like your recent allegation that I am in cahoots with Louis
Touton to ruin you.

- -- 
Best regards,
William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Userfriendly.com Domains
The most advanced domain lookup tool on the net
DNS Services from $1.65/mo

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:43:22 +0200
From: Jefsey Morfin <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Understanding business areas

As you may recall, I proposed formally to everyone concerned a peacefull 
way to fairly address the different complaints many rise about the DNSO/BC 
management. Some went emotionnal about it and my propositions were not 
considered but supposedly defered to the Membership who never heard about 
it yet.

Today BC has a real problem since only *one* of the four candidate and the 
Secretariat does not fail the Charter's test.

One example to understand: Grant Forsyth is from a company named Clear. 
Grant is not opposed in the Pacific area and will be elected. Grant is from 
Clear a Telco offering  products in the Pacific area wich are described 
on:http://www.clear.co.nz/products/internet/

- - web mail
- - global internet roaming
- - personnal web hosting
- - professional web hosting
- - domain names
- - internet access
- - e-business

This seems to be very near from the products Marilyn Cade explans she 
focusses into at AT&T. We therefore need to know under which premises the 
Secretariat accepts that they are in two different business areas.

Jefsey

I note that candidates received a list of questions and that at only a few 
day from the closing of the vote none has addressed them. I will therefore 
forward them to the GA if hey are not addressed tomorrow morning, so 
everyone may suggest his own responses.

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:31:44 +0200
From: Jefsey Morfin <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: [ga] Songbird in the BC?

On 12:07 25/10/01, Dassa said:
>I often get asked what sort of business DHS International is in.  I tell
>them we are an ISP.  My reasons for this are we provide services on the
>Internet and although we do not supply connectivity for our users we do
>assist with connectivity to them.  DHS provides domain/hostname services.
>
>Darryl (Dassa) Lynch.

You qualify as a .... registrar? registry? however you are a purely and 
legitimate Business. Try to get into the DNSO/BC.

I also suggest you join the Internet Business Association we are trying to 
set-up - attention: the IBA is not ICANN oriented, it is pure Internet 
(based) business oriented. Right now just trying to gather a diversified 
bootstrap as we go, to register as non-profit organization to protect name, 
have a base for stability and secretariat, domain name and mailing list. 
The whole thing will be structured through bylaws the boostrap will 
discuss. There is no reason why the BC could not be the IBA interface to 
the ICANN should it resumes a democratic stance.
Jefsey

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:01:29 +0200
From: Jefsey Morfin <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Songbird in the BC?

Dear all,
I introduced Ken Crispin's membership point because he was questioning our 
right to question the structure he takes advantage from. It was only an 
example of some being more equal than others. Nothing more. I do not want 
Kent to be less than equal than others!  Just him to be less contemptuous: 
did he chose to join the BC or was him proposed to support Mike's attempt 
to BC Chairmanship (what I would certainly not oppose would it be according 
the rules and with a good outreach and development strategy).

1. Kent has full rights to be a BC Member. I only regret that BC is a 
goulag and we cannot talk together. I would have been very interested 
knowing that Songbird is a hobby for a civil servant. This makes him still 
a small business than me and an interesting experience we could all benefit 
from.

2. People as individuals may be members of any number of constituencies. 
Their organizations not. My point was that one catholic non-profit 
association I chair is denied right to join the NCDNHC because I am myself 
employed by a I own a tiny Member of the DNSO/BC. As if Kent was denied the 
BC because he is not full time. I only say that every organization and 
people must be equal. The same Kent has full right to cast a vote both for 
Songbird and for his sympathetic yacht club (I am a seaman), I should have 
the same right to represent and vote for Members of the same both 
constituencies.

3. Jamie, "constituency" has at least three meanings depending on the 
constitutional culture evolution of the country. It is who is to 
participate to a seat election and in the republican US the understanding 
is just that. In the land based UK monarchy the understanding has refined 
to the land organization: so you can only vote in the place you live in and 
cannot belong to several constituencies. In the French administrative based 
system, the constituency is something far more sophisticated which comes as 
a part of the whole national system, with bridges, exceptions, rules, 
structural services, etc... The initial thinking was legal (Joe Sims), ie. 
more British like. This created some misunderstandings with many people who 
thought in an US way. Evolution seems to be towards the US understanding by 
the bottom and towards the French understanding by the top. The solution 
would be to review the whole concept as the governance key building bock it 
actually is. FYI the equivalent to the US approach in French language is 
"college" and the observed ICANN reality is more like a community.

The solution is to consider Constituencies as center of interests. Anyone 
sharing into it can join and bring its complementary share. And that SOs 
are center of interests for constituencies. We have the scheme already well 
oiled with the DNS: constituencies are like SLDs and SOs like TLDs. Again 
the only debate is about the "single authoritative root": is the ICANN the 
master or the servant of the world? Is it an harmonious part of the 
governance or is it the dominance?

4. Danny, Kent has well responded: ISPs are access providers. Technically 
his response is right. In practical terms everyone on the web sells domain 
names, host people, permit access, etc.. directly or indirectly. The whole 
Joe Sims' rigid categorization system, constituency exclusions and 
resulting contract policy is absurd. Governance is management of non rigid 
systems, hierarchy with one-to-one relations tree (dialog) is totally 
outdated here. We are in a many-to-many (polylog) society for a long, and 
one of the world vehicle for that change is the Web. Blocking it as Joe 
Sims and ICANN do leads to real divides and probably to real instability in 
a lot of areas. What we have to understand is that the WTC was first a 
business data network operation center, a symbol to destroy because 
competition was not allowed. War is only the use of weapons in competition, 
some Chinese general explained that very well 3500 years ago. ICANN is to 
foster stability through competition: they guy who asked for that was a 
peacemaker and a genius.

Jefsey

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:07:19 -0700
From: [email-masked] (Kristy McKee)
Subject: [ga] Re: [ga-abuse] Personal attack, by Mr Walsh, again

Joop & All,

Although Mr. Walsh is on the list of folks whom our secretariat will impose 
sanctions on, it is their decision to not suspend Kent Crispin as requested 
by the List Monitor Committee this past August that created the situation 
we are dealing with today.  Since the DNSO will not suspend Kent Crispin 
under any circumstances, it is not fair or reasonable to process complaints 
against other members.

This applies to all complaints received since August.  We really thought 
the DNSO had simply overlooked this; but over time we have learned that 
more that just the LMC has access to our private list.  For example, I am 
sure Mr. Walsh was aware of your complaint Joop not too long after you sent 
it to ga-abuse.

Before I joined the DNSO my opinion of it was that it was a sham.  After 
working as a list monitor for the GA, I know it is a sham.

~k

At 01:41 AM 10/26/2001 +1300, Joop Teernstra wrote:
>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:49:36 -0700
>From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
>X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.53d)
>Reply-To: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
>X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
>Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
>To: Joop Teernstra <[email-masked]>
>CC: Kent Crispin <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
>Subject: Re[3]: [ga] Songbird in the BC?
>In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
>References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
>  <[email-masked]>
>  <[email-masked]>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Sender: [email-masked]
>Precedence: bulk
>X-UIDL: 122093aea74f0e4f6656ec4e37e89965
>
>Thursday, Thursday, October 25, 2001, 12:52:09 AM, Joop Teernstra wrote:
>
>
> >>  They
> >>represent the single largest channel for the origination of domain
> >>name registrations, which they handle on behalf of their user base,
> >>and thus have a direct and compelling interest and stake in the DNS
> >>process.
>
> > That should get these people out of the Individual Registrants'
> > constituency where they do not really belong and which they may try to
> > subvert for their own interests.
>
>Your paranoid fantasy of capture doesn't hold out in the facts, Joop.
>
>Much like your recent allegation that I am in cahoots with Louis
>Touton to ruin you.
>
>
>--
>Best regards,
>William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
>Userfriendly.com Domains
>The most advanced domain lookup tool on the net
>DNS Services from $1.65/mo
>
>***********
>Must I reply to this on the list?

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:03:58 -0700
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] fyi & question!

Chun and all assembly members,

Chun Eung Hwi wrote:

> Dear GA members,
>
> Does anybody know who drafted this document?
> (http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/nc-str/Arc00/msg00005.html)

It looks like somebody named Mark Bohannon sent this
and created the draft.

>
> Does it remain only to wait for rubber stamp of board?

  The way it is worded would seem to be that a "Rubber Stamp"
from the ICANN BOD is the goal at least.  It would also seem
that Mr. Bohannon has not done his homework very well.

  Does anyone know who this Mark Bohannon is and what his
interests are in this space?  I don't recall ever seeing a post
on any ICANN forum or even an ICANN related forum from
him.

>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> *Draft* Proposed Action Statement for ICANN's Board
>
> Based on an extensive outreach, discussion, research, and
> consensus-building campaign the ALSC recommends that, on November 15,
> 2001, the ICANN Board adopt the following recommendations concerning
> At-Large participation and representation.
>
> (1) The Board affirms that individual Internet users have a significant
> stake in ICANN's activities and should have the opportunity of fully
> participating in ICANN.
>
> (2) While the ALSC's final report remains open for comment and
> consideration, the Board acknowledges that the following basic principles
> should guide expedited action on At-Large:
>
> (a) Create an At-Large Supporting Organization (ALSO) as a
> regionally-based framework for informed participation of any interested
> individual and for At-Large involvement in ICANN policy and
> decision-making (including mechanisms to foster discussion among
> individuals and with ICANN's decision-making bodies);
>
> (b) Focus At-Large membership on an identifiable and vested community (an
> ALSO electorate) to provide a practical mechanism for voter registration
> and self-funding (e.g. The ALSC recommends that membership be based on
> individual domain name holders);
>
> (c) Provide a proportionate role for At-Large members in selecting ICANN's
> Board (along with other ICANN constituencies) (e.g. The ALSC recommends 6
> At-Large Directors in a 19 member Board).
>
> (3) The Board requests that the ICANN CEO solicit expressions of interest
> to determine the degree of interest in creating local and regional ALSO
> entities that would support informed participation of interested
> individuals and At-Large involvement in ICANN, and report the results to
> the Board at the March 2002 ICANN meeting.
>
> (4) The Board authorizes the extension of the ALSC until March 31, 2002 to
> work with the Supporting Organizations, other interested parties, and
> ICANN staff on proposing detailed plans for an At-Large membership, voter
> registration, and a regionally-based, self-supporting ALSO.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Chun Eung Hwi
> General Secretary, PeaceNet | phone:     (+82) 2- 583-3033
> Seoul Yangchun P.O.Box 81   |   pcs:     (+82) 019-259-2667
> Seoul, 158-600, Korea       | eMail:   [email-masked]
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
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Regards,

- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:14:05 -0700
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Opinion - Re: [ga] Recent BC Membership Decision

WXW, Josh and all assembly members,

  I am also in agreement with Josh here as well.  I strongly differ with
WXW's contention that New.net is anti-ICANN.  Quite the
contrary IOHO.  INEGroup has always been, and remains a strong
proponent of multiple registry's and shared registries coexisting.
New.Net has proven the concept.  Why Stuart Lynn and the ICANN
BoD sees this as a threat is seemingly inconsistent with reality...  In
fact such a attitude borders on the paranoid...

William X Walsh wrote:

> Wednesday, Wednesday, October 24, 2001, 4:07:07 PM, Josh Elliott wrote:
>
> > I would think that if they are a business that does not fit into any of the
> > other constituencies, then they should be eligible in the BUSINESS
> > constituency.  The Constituency group model was created to INCLUDE as many
> > industry groups and sectors as possible - it should not EXCLUDE anyone.
>
> > If I own a barber shop, but I like ICANN politics and want to be involved, I
> > should be able to go to the BC.
>
> I agree with Josh here.
>
> I may not like New.net's positions on policy matters, but they have a
> right to participate, even if their stance is anti-ICANN.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
> Userfriendly.com Domains
> The most advanced domain lookup tool on the net
> DNS Services from $1.65/mo
>
> --
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> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
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Regards,

- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:30:39 -0700
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] .biz preliminary injunction dissolved - 

WXW and all assembly members,

  Yes but this only applies to the "Preliminary Injunction" WXW!
Therefore you representation here is a bit misleading.  In addition
the litigation still continues on this matter, as court ordered.

William X Walsh wrote:

> http://www.lextext.com/icann/index.html
>
> The domains previously covered under the injunction can now go live,
> since the plaintiffs were unable to come up with the court order bond
> the court required as a condition of the injunction.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
> Userfriendly.com Domains
> The most advanced domain lookup tool on the net
> DNS Services from $1.65/mo
>
> --
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> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
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Regards,

- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:43:57 -0700
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Songbird in the BC?

James and all assembly members,

  No you can belong to more than one constituency, but can only
vote as a member of one constituency.  But this really isn't what
is in question with respect to Kent Crispin's Songbird.com.  The
concern is that how can Kent be a member of both the BC
and the NCDNHC constituencies when his enterprise is obviously
a FOR PROFIT organization?  It would seem in that Songbird.com
is NOT a non-profit organization and therefore should not be a
member of the NCDNHC or if it is registered as a non-profit
than he should not be a member of the BC under the songbird.com
organization...

  However this does not preclude Kent from belonging to two
constituencies per se.  But he seems to have done so improperly,
and I think he knows this as does the BC principals.  Hence it
would seem inconsistent that this should be allowed and the
ICANN BoD in it's oversight capacity should instruct
the BC to clarify why Kent under songbird.com is a member
and in what status, or instruct the BC principals to take action
to correct this problem forthwith.

  My guess is that the ICANN BoD had no idea that this situation
existed, but it should have, and that it has no intention of addressing
this problem in it's oversight capacity in the near term, if at all....

  BTW, we have discussed this concern when the formation of
the Constituency's were under way and that this was commonly
considered one method that could be used to "Stack the Deck"
so to speak so as to allow for certain participants or types of
participants to have an unfair advantage over others for the
purposes of policy decision making and consensus determination.

James Love wrote:

> How many constituencies can you belong to?  I thought it was just one.
> Jamie
>
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Eric Dierker wrote:
>
> > The following is one of the finest examples of elitist crap one can find.  I can
> > just see this - Old chap smoking a fancy pipe while directing his boy to clean
> > his eight iron,  "but of course anyone can join the club old boyo,  Oh and by
> > the way here is a statement regards ISPs my barrister drew up for your ignorant
> > understanding"
> >
> > Get a grip Crispin your elitist days are numbered.  Tell us about the Yacht Club
> > deal.  Tell us about your consultancy with ICANN - how about a financial
> > disclosure?
> >
> > Better yet disclose your relationship with the executive committee of our BoD.
> > Is there a stipend that the GA could use associated with such services.  While
> > Roberts tells us that ICANN cannot support a GA or an AL tell us how much they
> > afford on your services.  And you are a member of two Constituencies?
> >
> > Come clean or drop your comments Mr. lonely bird.  I used to think that what you
> > do is your business but now I see that you take money that could allow
> > individual users a voice on the Internet.  I hope you sleep well.
> >
> > Quite Sincerely,
> > Eric
> >
> > Kent Crispin wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:34:38PM -0400, [email-masked] wrote:
> > > > Jefsey, you indicated that Songbird recently became a member of the
> > > > business constituency.  The Songbird website
> > > > http://songbird.com/songbird/index.html seems to indicate that the
> > > > company is primarily an ISP.
> > >
> > > ISP's, by the definition used in the ISP and BC constituency,
> > > fundamentally provide internet connectivity to end users.  Songbird does
> > > not provide internet connectivity to anyone.  Instead, Songbird's
> > > services are limited to website hosting, design, development, and
> > > consulting.  Entities that provide these services are sometimes loosely
> > > referred to as ISPs, because the term "ISP" is used differently by
> > > different people.  But as it is used in ICANN, Songbird is not an ISP.
> > > (There is another term common in the business, "Internet Presence
> > > Provider").
> > >
> > > > How then can it be a full member of the BC
> > > > instead of merely an admitted observer?
> > >
> > > You could have figured this out yourself, but of course that would not
> > > serve your purpose.
> > >
> > > > BC Charter:  "Legally recognized for-profit business enterprises that have
> > > > been in business for less than one year and companies whose predominant
> > > > business is to be a registry, a registrar or an ISP cannot have full
> > > > membership status, but may become observers."
> > > >
> > > > I seems that Kent has developed the knack of being in a number of
> > > > constituencies simultaneously while the rest of us remain unrepresented.
> > > > Interesting.
> > >
> > > Yes, it is interesting.  It proves that the claims that you and others
> > > make about being unrepresented are simply bogus noise.  Anyone who
> > > seriously wants to participate can do so.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kent Crispin                               "Be good, and you will be
> > > [email-masked]                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
> > > --
> > > This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
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> >
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> >
> >
>
> --
> --------------------------
> James Love, Consumer Project on Technology, http://www.cptech.org
> [email-masked], v. 1.202.387.8030, f 1.202.234.5176
>
> --
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Regards,

- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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------------------------------

End of GA-DIGEST V1 #815
************************