Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #1730
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST           Tuesday, June 24 2003           Volume 01 : Number 1730

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:05:25 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

On Sun, Jun 22, 2003 at 11:34:00PM +0200,
 Marc Schneiders <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 28 lines which said:

> Similarly French 'la' and the same with accent grave (`) have totally
> different meanings ('the' and 'there').

True, but to get into such issues is too difficult. We accept names
that are not in any dictionary. So, we cannot use the grammar to
decide on similarities. Following Paul Hoffman's Internet-Draft about
IDN policices, we will use an automatic table, even if its output is
not always legal French (so, "la", "là" and "lâ" - the latter being
non-existant - will automatically be reserved to the registrant of
"la").

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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:11:15 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] RE: Who'se done it? .org IDNs killed

On Sun, Jun 22, 2003 at 11:19:20PM +0200,
 Marc Schneiders <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 39 lines which said:

> 2. I'd rather say the people were the victim of ICANN giving ORG to
> another entity, one that refuses to support the 'testbed'.

They were right. The testbed was a testbed. It should not give any
rights to the registrant. Otherwise, any operation sold as a "test"
(for instance, to gain more acceptance) could lead to the entrenchment
of rights.

> Should we expect that .net IDNs will stop working in 2005 when .net
> will be given (if that happens) to another?

It would make sense, yes.
 
> Stability?

Stability between standards: if RFC 3490 is one day updated or
replaced by another, we expect that the registrants of RFC3490 domains
will be offered some form of free upgrade. We expect that they will
not loose anything just because IETF evolved.

But there is no reason to guarantee any stability between experiments
and the real stuff. That's what experiments are for. (ICP-3 gives
details about that, although this document is not often quoted because
the pro-domo speech of ICANN is annoying.)

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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:14:40 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

On Sun, Jun 22, 2003 at 06:48:41PM -0700,
 Jeff Williams <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 97 lines which said:

> IDN systems that have been in place for a few years now.

Using proprietary techniques. So, it doesn't count. Internet is based
on open standards.

> Hence to say it works is a relative conclusion.  And is so,
> simply because the IETF does not necessarily SET standards
> for any and all technical processes  for IT technology

Yes, we also have the W3C and some others. But I count as "standards"
and worthy of consideration only the works produced by open groups,
not anything coming from a given company.

> However the IETF "Approach" is not designed to be interoperable at
> all with previous working techniques

Of course, there is no reason to support proprietary legacy
techniques.
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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:52:48 -0400
From: "John Berryhill Ph.D. J.D." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] 4th Circuit Court of Appeals Reverses Barcelona.com Deci sion

From: "Marc Schneiders" <[email-masked]>

> > And the registrant is of course always free to pick any
> > place with jurisdiction over the TM owner, since this isn't a true
> > "appeal" but is technically a sort of collageral attack.
>
> I am not sure I get this. To stop the execution of the UDRP decision one
> has to file in the registrar's or registrant's jurisdiction. No?

Yes, that is what the UDRP says - the domain name will not be transferred if
a suit is filed in the specified jurisdiction.

However, it is also true that registrars are required to lock domains subject
to litigation.  The UDRP does not say that the domain name *will* be
transferred even if there is litigation elsewhere.

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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:27:02 -0700
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

No,

It is completely on topic for us.
And while it may be an issue for communities those communities should
follow International Standards.
Isolationism breeds contempt and contempt breeds violence and mistrust.
Japan, China and the EU are finding this out the hard way as did the US
and
USSR.
Until you have something better than ICANN you better use it to help
people work
together - globally.

e

Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 22, 2003 at 03:19:52PM +0200,
>  Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]> wrote
>  a message of 31 lines which said:
>
> > Which brings me to the issue that nobody has ever decided whether,
> > say, the current owner of liberte.com should have any priority right
> > on libertè.com.
>
> It is a very interesting issue but I do not think it is possible to
> get an international answer. People in France and in Sweden, for
> instance, have different expectations when Unicode characters are not
> available. French-speaking people are typically more lax about
> composed characters.
>
> AFNIC's Board decided that two labels of the same bundle (for instance
> cafe and café) must be registered only to the same registrant. We will
> register IDN that way.
>
> Do note that it requires a table of variants, which involves some
> heated discussions about the semantics of the various characters.
>
> > (I think he should, otherwise we're going to see plenty of
> > disputes.)
>
> Anyway, it is a matter to be settled at a national level. Completely
> off-topic for ICANN.
>
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 02:37:25 +0800
From: James Seng <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

It always amazed me that citizen of country X thinks they have rights to 
decide over how country Y operates.

Do you understand the concept of "National Sovereignity"?

- -James Seng

[email-masked] wrote:
> No,
> 
> It is completely on topic for us.
> And while it may be an issue for communities those communities should
> follow International Standards.
> Isolationism breeds contempt and contempt breeds violence and mistrust.
> Japan, China and the EU are finding this out the hard way as did the US
> and
> USSR.
> Until you have something better than ICANN you better use it to help
> people work
> together - globally.
> 
> e
> 
> Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> 
> 
>>On Sun, Jun 22, 2003 at 03:19:52PM +0200,
>> Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]> wrote
>> a message of 31 lines which said:
>>
>>
>>>Which brings me to the issue that nobody has ever decided whether,
>>>say, the current owner of liberte.com should have any priority right
>>>on libertè.com.
>>
>>It is a very interesting issue but I do not think it is possible to
>>get an international answer. People in France and in Sweden, for
>>instance, have different expectations when Unicode characters are not
>>available. French-speaking people are typically more lax about
>>composed characters.
>>
>>AFNIC's Board decided that two labels of the same bundle (for instance
>>cafe and café) must be registered only to the same registrant. We will
>>register IDN that way.
>>
>>Do note that it requires a table of variants, which involves some
>>heated discussions about the semantics of the various characters.
>>
>>
>>>(I think he should, otherwise we're going to see plenty of
>>>disputes.)
>>
>>Anyway, it is a matter to be settled at a national level. Completely
>>off-topic for ICANN.
>>
>>--
>>This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
>>Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
>>("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
>>Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 

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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:22:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eric Dierker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

Dear Mr. Seng,

You do not get the big picture.
It is not a decision by one country it is an agreement between many.
We get together and decide between many what will work best.
And then we implement.
BTAs and the WTO and the IMF do not care about one country.
We care about commerce.  Which in turn fixes things like aids and SARS
through the WHO.  Which in turn argues about genetically altered foods and 
human rights.  
ICANN has many faults but geographic representation and diversification are 
not amoung them.  I am sorry to inform you but even the great international 
organization called ASEAN (association of southeast Asian Nations) uses 
English as their common language.
It would do you well to contact some people regarding our hard driven 
interests in global equality before making such a statement.
e

> It always amazed me that citizen of country X thinks they have rights
> to  decide over how country Y operates.
>

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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:45:16 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 09:27:02AM -0700,
 [email-masked] <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 49 lines which said:

> And while it may be an issue for communities those communities should
> follow International Standards.

Yes!

> Isolationism breeds contempt and contempt breeds violence and
> mistrust.  Japan, China and the EU are finding this out the hard way
> as did the US and USSR.

[Off-topic and unrelated sentence skipped.]

> Until you have something better than ICANN you better use it to help
> people work
> together - globally.

There are many forums to discuss IDN matters: CENTR
<URL:http://www.centr.org/> made an excellent job of keeping people in
touch and exchanging ideas. The idn-reg-policy mailing list also. What
did ICANN do with IDN?

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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:05:55 -0700
From: "Asaad Y. Alnajjar - Millennium Inc." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

In my opinion,

If a certain solution or approach works for a certain language X that does not
mean at all it will work for Y or Z nor that it should be the standard for all
the globe.

It will be very difficult to come up with a magical formula to solve all the
required language specifics and address the many variances that do exist in both
Linguistic & Technical environment.

The concept of a multilingual .com is totally wrong as it should be MLD.MLD with
100% Multilingual Domains without any English characters. With this in mind then
ICANN has no authority to regulate such domains but will be welcomed to
participate as an advisory capacity along with the ITU and other international
bodies.

The ultimate decision is to be mainly within the bounds of the Countries
involving language X by IT consultants knowledgeable of language X but at the
same time insure non conflict with others since we all share the same DNS.

Regards,

Asaad Alnajjar
CEO Millennium Inc.
Member AINC / Member MINC

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "James Seng" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <[email-masked]>; "Vittorio Bertola"
<[email-masked]>; "Marc Schneiders" <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

> It always amazed me that citizen of country X thinks they have rights to
> decide over how country Y operates.
>
> Do you understand the concept of "National Sovereignity"?
>
> -James Seng
>
> [email-masked] wrote:
> > No,
> >
> > It is completely on topic for us.
> > And while it may be an issue for communities those communities should
> > follow International Standards.
> > Isolationism breeds contempt and contempt breeds violence and mistrust.
> > Japan, China and the EU are finding this out the hard way as did the US
> > and
> > USSR.
> > Until you have something better than ICANN you better use it to help
> > people work
> > together - globally.
> >
> > e
> >
> > Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Sun, Jun 22, 2003 at 03:19:52PM +0200,
> >> Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]> wrote
> >> a message of 31 lines which said:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Which brings me to the issue that nobody has ever decided whether,
> >>>say, the current owner of liberte.com should have any priority right
> >>>on libertè.com.
> >>
> >>It is a very interesting issue but I do not think it is possible to
> >>get an international answer. People in France and in Sweden, for
> >>instance, have different expectations when Unicode characters are not
> >>available. French-speaking people are typically more lax about
> >>composed characters.
> >>
> >>AFNIC's Board decided that two labels of the same bundle (for instance
> >>cafe and café) must be registered only to the same registrant. We will
> >>register IDN that way.
> >>
> >>Do note that it requires a table of variants, which involves some
> >>heated discussions about the semantics of the various characters.
> >>
> >>
> >>>(I think he should, otherwise we're going to see plenty of
> >>>disputes.)
> >>
> >>Anyway, it is a matter to be settled at a national level. Completely
> >>off-topic for ICANN.
> >>
> >>--
> >>This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> >>Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> >>("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> >>Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
> >
> >
> > --
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> > ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> > Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
> >
> >
> >
>
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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:24:58 -0700
From: "Asaad Y. Alnajjar - Millennium Inc." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

> What did ICANN do with IDN?

Obstruct progress, delay deployment and attempt to eliminate the whole IDN
concept.
The IDN working group could have finished findings long time ago.

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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:37:24 +0200
From: "DNSO SECRETARIAT" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] GNSO Council Montreal meeting - webcast

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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:03:40 +0200
From: "J-F C. (Jefsey)  Morfin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

On 20:37 23/06/03, James Seng said:
>It always amazed me that citizen of country X thinks they have rights to 
>decide over how country Y operates.
>Do you understand the concept of "National Sovereignity"?

Amen.

But, James, let not forget that Europe to function had to forge the English 
word "concertation", copying on the Latin usual understanding to address 
the need to independently and sovereignly work together in the same 
direction; if each participant wants it. The only English word to support a 
similar concept is "coordination" which implies a common authority instead 
of a common servant.

FYI: concertation
1 entry found for concertation.
\Con`cer*ta"tion\, n. [L. concertatio.] Strife; contention. [Obs.] --Bailey.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

This is the whole problem of ICANN. Joe Sims illustrated it well in a post 
on this GA. He perfectly described what a "concertation" (European meaning) 
should be among the Internance. And concluded this was "coordination", so 
ICANN needed to lead it.

Another problem is that "National Sovereignty" is a descriptive concept. 
Sovereignty is embodied by States. And if States were to take the first 
role, relations with private sector and civil society would be  complex and 
lengthy to organize anew. Actually the only existing forum for that is ITU 
(while the WSIS gives UN a good opportunity to promote/organize the 
representation of the Civil Society). But ITU-T is certainly not a good 
place for the Internet. This means that we have first to induce ITU in 
planning an ITU-I to interrelate with the Internance and to have ICANN to 
initiate a working group on relations with other international structures 
like ITU, UN, UNECO, WTO, WIPO etc. We also have ccTLDs to better structure 
themsleves, users communities governance to emerge and nomenclatures and 
other name spaces authorities to federate..Then we may have a generalized 
framework acceptable to everyone.

Last but not least, however Paul Twomey seems to go boldly in the proper 
Legacy way (as actually did the ERC), we need to clarify if ICANN wants to 
be an open network support or a Legacy system administrator, and then what 
is the role of IAB and IETF in the New Networks Technologies, even if IAB 
actually tells in in not really moving towards a generalized architecture 
proposition.
jfc

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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:55:17 +0200
From: Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:02:25 +0200, you wrote:

>Anyway, it is a matter to be settled at a national level. Completely
>off-topic for ICANN.

Well... but who is going to make policies in this field (if any)
regarding gTLDs? 

If you could tie up any possible IDN string to a single language, you
could decide to apply for that string the rules decided locally for
that language (i.e. use the French rules for libertè.com, but the
Italian ones for libertà.com). But this is clearly impossible in
practice.

So either someone (perhaps CENTR and other ccTLD associations?) can
come up with best practices for variant tables to be applied at the
global level, or we won't be able to have any policy in the field.

Also, to reply to Marc:

>It may also lead to
>people feeling forced to register an additional 7, 8, 9 domains with all
>possible accents on the vowels (in many European languages). This will
>only benefit the registries and registrars.

This is why I think that registrants should get the whole registration
bundle (the set of all equivalent variants) at the price of a single
registration.
- -- 
vb.                  [Vittorio Bertola - vb [at] bertola.eu.org]<---
- -------------------> http://bertola.eu.org/ <-----------------------
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 03:09:29 -0500
From: "Jim Fleming" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] NAT - North American Transport...nomadic tribes and regions...

The Internet has empowered "Nomadic People" to operate in cyberspace and overcome "meat-space people".
Most North Americans (NAT - North American Transport) only watch nomadic tribes in other parts of the world,
on their cable TV, but they are not aware of the nomadic activities of their own population. The name-space and
address-space debates make little sense to nomadic people, because they are able to quickly move on to another
venue, when the one they are in ceases to make progress. Meat-space people have trouble moving because they
are locked into physical venues and spend their resources moving to and from those venues, and attempting to
tell the cyberspace world that those venues will result in progress. The nomadic tribes live off of the meat-space
people, and continue to operate with higher and higher levels of efficiency, while the meat-space people remain
stuck in time and place, attempting to defend their lifestyles, which they have to fund from each other. Meat-space
people allow nomadic cyberspace people to enter their venues and never note that the only investment the
nomadic person may have in getting there is a plane ticket, cab fare and funding for a used three-piece-suit from
the local Goodwill store. Business cards from some global corporate machine may help to convince the meat-space
people that the nomadic cyberspace people should be allowed to invade their venues. Representatives from some
unknown or obscure "government", half-way around the world, may also be a ticket to enter. Traditional meat-space
people can be totally baffled by nomadic cyberspace people who are totally defined by the images presented on
glass CRTs or LCD panels. Meat-space people gravitate to having face-to-face meetings and then sit in those
meetings with LCD panels to view what the other people are saying. Many meat-space people are totally clueless
because they have spent very little time in cyberspace and they can not imagine being nomadic. They help to slow
progress in meat-space venues to a crawl. They delegate everything to cyberspace visitors to those meat-space
venues, and they never stop to think about how little impact they have and the fact that the cyberspace visitors are
living off them, laughing all the way to the bank.

An educated meat-space population, that also spends time in cyberspace, will change the North American Transport
(NAT). There will be a coming together of the meat-space and cyberspace venues. Vistors from some obscure
place half-way around the world, will be ignored by the new, more savy, meat-space/cyber-space netizens. The
coming generations of children will have been educated partly in cyberspace and will not fall prey to the nomadic
visitors who have little or no investment in the meat-space venues. The next-generation InterNAT will combine the
cyberspace and meat-space experiences, yielding more stable "tribes" that are defined not only by their common
ties to meat-space venues, but also common language ties in name-spaces. The address-spaces take care of
themselves, and are a necessary evil to make networks...work. Meat-space land (dirt) issues are similar in nature.
The nomadic benefits of cyberspace will of course not be tossed aside, they will help to enhance the meat-space
experiences. Education will be the key to making the tribes strong. Illiterate netizens, meeting mostly in meat-space,
will have less and less impact. Why would anyone want to waste their time (and money) in such venues ?

There are 4 Tribal Regions taking shape on the North American Transport (NAT). They are partly defined from
long histories of meat-space and cyberspace. The 2-letter TLDs help to shape their names.

1. NHMAFR
2. DEMDVA
3. TXMXFL
4. CALAOZ

It is an over-simplification to assume that the first region is French-speaking people who think they will move
to New Hampshire and then join up with Quebec to form a new country with access to the Atlantic Ocean.
Likewise, people may think that the second region is German doctors who visit the Vatican to get the Pope's
blessing on taking over Delaware. Then there are the folks who want to merge Texas and Mexico and bring
in Florida to form a country rich in oil and low-cost labor, with a lucrative travel market. Finally, the media
people have discovered how quickly Canada can be moved to LA and turned into the Emerald City down-under.

...from N to Z...NZ...
NH...MA...FR...DE...MD...VA...TX...MX...FL...CA...LA...OZ

...follow the Yellow Brick Road...
http://www.DOT-BIZ.com

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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:11:15 -0500
From: "Jim Fleming" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] .DE.EU..."...who is going to make policies in this field..." ???

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Vittorio Bertola" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Internationalized Domain Names deployed
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:02:25 +0200, you wrote:

>Anyway, it is a matter to be settled at a national level. Completely
>off-topic for ICANN.

Well... but who is going to make policies in this field (if any)
regarding gTLDs? 
=====

Customers (the ones that pay the money) make the selections...

How many of these customers will move to DE.EU ?

http://www.denic.de/DENICdb/stats/index.en.html#domaincount
Domains total: 6,421,950 
===
At $100 per domain per year, what does .EU do with all of the money ?

How many .DE names will there be ?

By the way....What country is Boston in ?
http://www.Boston.MA
http://www.bostonmontrealhsr.org/studyroute.htm

Jim Fleming
http://www.IPv8.info

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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:40:11 -0500
From: "Jim Fleming" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] .NH...1:3  NEW-HAMPSHIRE...Friday, June 27...MEET NEW HAMPSHIRE GOVERNOR BENSON 

http://www.freestateproject.org/nhagenda.htm

Friday, June 27
MEET NEW HAMPSHIRE GOVERNOR BENSON

On this day, a tour of the Historic New Hampshire State House and meeting with New Hampshire Governor Benson have been arranged for
Free State Project members joining us for the Escape to New Hampshire.

The meeting for FSP members with Governor Benson will take place in the Governor's office at 1:00 pm. FSP members will have the
opportunity to speak briefly with the Governor and gain a better sense of the welcome FSP will receive from the very highest levels
of New Hampshire state government.

======

Jim Fleming

http://www.IPv8.info

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------------------------------

End of GA-DIGEST V1 #1730
*************************