Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #1687
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST           Wednesday, May 7 2003           Volume 01 : Number 1687

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:05:01 -0500
From: "John Palmer" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days.

 Sorry to sound like a broken record, but if you want a censorship free list,
 see http://dns-o.org/mailman/listinfo/ga.
 
 Democracy is messy and loud. There is no reason to censor people unless
 you want to prevent them from expressing an opinion with which you 
 disagree.
 
 John
 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Thomas Roessler <[email-masked]>
> > > To: <[email-masked]>
> > > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:56 AM
> > > Subject: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days.
> > > 
> > > 
> > >> The posting rights of Jeff Williams have been suspended until May 19
> > >> for comparing Vittorio Bertola to Benito Mussolini.  Personal
> > >> offenses are *not* compatible with the list rules.
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> --
> > >> Thomas Roessler <[email-masked]>
> 
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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:49:35 -0500
From: "John Palmer" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Even Handed Application of The Rules (Yes or No? - We shall see)  (was Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days).

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Lets see if the Powers that Be will be even handed. I am not in favor of =
censorship
of any kind, but if it is to be applied, it should be even handed. Below =
is a message
just posted to the list by Albert Brickel.

In his message below, he calls another member a "Zombie Kook" and =
characterizes his=20
messages as "rants"

He has posted such stuff before to this list.

I beleive this is against the rules.=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Albert Brickel=20
  To: [email-masked] ; [email-masked]=20
  Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer=20
  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 10:58
  Subject: Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 =
days.

    Scroll to the bottom of the list for Jeff Williams lies and antics =
in 2003.

    In response to the following rants from Jeff (Zombie-Kook) Williams =
find below some appropriate information:=20

    FROM: Jason Watkins=20
    DATE: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:51:22 -0700 (PDT)=20
    TO: <[email-masked]>   [atlarge-discuss] Reminder: =
Jeff Williams is mentally Ill=20

    Just a reminder and a repost of the Jeff Williams FAQ.  I see that =
Jeff Williams has been writing not as an individual, but in the plural =
again.  Using phrases like "At such time as we [INEGroup] have done a =
complete review" This is just a reminder that INEG group does not exist, =
that Jeff Williams is not to be taken seriously, and that he speaks only =
for himself and not for a group of over 100,000 people.  Frankly it is =
sad, and I wish he would get help.  Regular readers will ignore his =
inane ramblings, but new readers may be tricked into replying. Among the =
"nutsy-cukoo" things he has said in the last few weeks are: That he met =
personally with President George Bush in Waco Texas and that he is =
having secret email conversations with government officials. Here is the =
rest of the FAQ:=20
    Jeff Williams' FAQ. (99/01)=20
    -- 1. Who is Jeff Williams? Jeffrey A. Williams,  has claimed in =
postings to various lists:=20
    -- to be the Chief Executive Off! icer and the Co-Founder of the 4.8 =
billion dollar privately held employee owned INEG. INC=20
    -- to be the Director of Internet Network Engineering and Senior =
Java/CORBA Engineer for the Information Network Engineering Group, INEG =
INC.=20
    -- to be an ex-IBM Fellow,=20
    -- to have to have graduated from UTD and to have a law degree from =
SMU Law School=20
    -- to have three degrees, MBA, Masters in Computer Science and =
Engineering, and Law=20
    -- to have served as a judge for 7 years=20
    -- to be a member of the IETF -- to serve on several medium sized =
business boards and on the boards of several banks=20
    -- to be the author of two books and is working on a third=20
    -- to own 3 ISPs, including Frisco net, Deltanet and Wiltel, with =
1.6 million users=20
    -- to have been a fighter pilot with USMC, flying missions in Chile =
and for the DEA, as a reserve pilot in the USMC, stationed out of Grand =
Prairie air station just south of Dallas=20
    -- to have been acting squadron commander o! f the Marine combat F4 =
squadron VMF214 (Black Sheep) at Tan Son Nhut during the Viet Nam war=20
    -- to have spent several years in NIS (Naval Investigative Service)=20
    -- Graduate of Naval Staff & War College=20
    -- Retired Colonel, United States Marine Corps -- to own 8% of eBay=20

    However,=20
    -- Jeff's 'INEG. INC' does not exist except as a fantasy in Jeff =
Williams' mind.=20
    -- Jeff changed the name of the company in his .sig, in Jan 1998, =
from  'Information Eng. Group' to Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. =
INC., when the real Information Engineering Group =
<http://www.ieg-america.com/>, became aware of Jeff's use of their name. =

    -- SMU Law School Registrar's office, (214) 768-2618, disclaims all =
knowledge of Jeff. Jeffrey A. Williams is a fake and an imposter.=20
    -- 2. Why should I take care in sending private email to Jeff =
Williams? He may post it to the list. Ironically, in his postings of =
others' private email so far the content has been counter-productive to =
his reputation and credibility. You should presume any email to him will =
posted to the list.=20
    -- 3. Is there other material available on Jeff Williams?=20
    h! ttp://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/03504.html
    http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05347.html
    http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05398.html
    http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05525.html
    http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/08015.html    =20

    Please find below some additional claims he has made in 2002, =
regarding his exploits:=20
    1.  worked at CMA (an IT consulting firm) developing management =
principals (his spelling not mine)=20
    2.  worked for the United States government on a program called =
Krypto (must be top secret because a Google search reveals only that it =
was the dog companion of Superboy)=20
    3.  worked for Systems Administration, Networking, and Security =
Institute (sans.org) on BIND security=20
    4.  worked for the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) in Public =
Key Infrastructure (PKI)=20
    5.  worked for the Vietnam Veterans Association=20
    6.  worked for the Dallas Businessmen's Association (a Google search =
revealed no such organization)=20
    7.  worked for the United States Department of Defense as a project =
coordinator on the Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET)=20
    8.  worked for the World Trade Organization on General Agreement on =
Tariffs an! d Trade (GATT)=20
    9.  worked on the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)=20
    10.  attended the Economic Summit meeting held by President George. =
W. Bush in Waco, TX, in August, 2002=20
    11.  worked for the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) for six =
(6) years on Internet Protocol Version 6=20
    12.  flew F-4, F-14, F-18 jets for the United States Marine Corps =
but is now retired
    13.  is a private pilot
    14.  to have served as a county judge for 1 year 8 months
    15.  has a law degree and specializes in trademark, business, and =
antitrust law
    16.  given award as "Outstanding Texan" by Texas Chamber of Commerce =
in 1998 (Google search reveals Chamber of Commerce are by city only; =
there is no Texas State Chamber of Commerce)
    16.  performs volunteer police work (and carries a gun!) once a =
month in the state of Texas
    17.  claims membership in both Texas State Republican Party and =
Texas State Democratic Party Ca! ucuses
    18.  his family has six attorneys on retainer, two for him, two for =
his elderly parents, and one each for his daughters
    19.  teaches speed reading and basic reading courses to =
underprivileged children and adults (where does he find the time to do =
all this and still rant online?)=20
    20.  claims to have US$4555 in a trust account held for =
icannatlarge.org but will not reveal name of bank nor provide any proof =
of account (and says that he can raise US$100K more with little effort)
    21.  is working with Richard Clark, Chairman of the U.S. Critical =
Infrastructure Protection Board (Cybersecurity Czar) and Andrew Card, =
Chief of Staff of U.S. President Geo. W. Bush Whitehouse Administration, =
on cyber security issues
    22.  has over 23 years experience starting up companies including =
non-profit corporations
    23.  intimidated and threatened to report a fellow member of =
ICANNatLarge.org to the U.S. Homeland Security Department and the F.B.! =
I. for making a comment about President Bush (he claims to be on =
speaking terms with department managements)
     =20
    The above items are directly from his OWN statements:
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0207/msg00457.html=20
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00619.html=20
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00657.html=20
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0209/msg00584.html
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00641.html
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00654.html
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00675.html
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg01053.html
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00106.html
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00200.html
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00303.html
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00313.html
    http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00410.html
    http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga-full/Arc11/msg02724.html=20
    Some other s! ources for the "real" Jeff Williams:
    http://www.angelfire.com/clone/jeffwilliams/

    Please find below some additional claims he has made in 2003, =
regarding his exploits:
    1.  alleges to be in the United States Government Federal Registry =
but a federal registry does not exist; although there is a Federal =
Register it has no association with any Jeff Williams persona regarding =
related fields or topics near what the Zombi/Kook rants (find out for =
yourself at http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces140.html)
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0301/msg00258.
    2.  claims to be a wireless internet provider for China although his =
fictitious company is not remotely connected with ISP and there is no =
reference anywhere through Google that mentions INEG and China in the =
same search except for postings by Jeff Williams (which means he =
references himself as proof he exists)
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html=20
    3.  seems to have attracted another 2 thousand fictitious members to =
his fake corporation (from 127k to 129k) as stated by his signature
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html=20
    4.  accused a fellow member of ICANNatLarge.org of cheating the =
outcome of several internet based elections and when challenged he only =
made more unfounded accusations and provided no proof
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0302/msg00400.html=20
    5.  always talks about members of INEG attending various internet =
related meetings but nobody ever sees them or speaks with them or even =
finds anyone wearing an INEG name tag , and Jeff always says "they are =
too busy to meet with you"
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00247.html=20
    6.  claims to be one of the originators of ARPANET
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00331.html
    7.  claims to be an employee of the United States Government and =
threatened to sue another member as well as inform both U.S. and =
Canadian authorities of alleged illegal activities (the member was =
charged by Jeff of supposedly mailing the membership list without =
authority)
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00082.html
    8.  claims to have over $6700 in funds for ICANNatLarge organization =
but does not provide proof the money exists
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00192.html
    9.  claims to be an informant for the Fed! eral Bureau of =
Investigation (F.B.I.) of the United States Government
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00451.html
    10.  talks about the openness and transparency of his alleged =
INEGroup but has never revealed even one member's name and, if =
pressured, will state that one can get the membership list via a Freedom =
of Information Act (FOIA) request by the United States Government law =
allowing access to records of Federal agencies (but he states that it is =
available from the FEC which is the Federal Election Commission which =
has nothing to do with INEGroup members)
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00466.html=20
    11.  claims to have over 11K members in INEGroup from mainland China
    see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0305/msg00! 068.html
    =20

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lets see if the Powers that Be will be =
even handed.=20
I am not in favor of censorship</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>of any kind, but if it is to be =
applied, it should=20
be even handed. Below is a message</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>just posted to the list by Albert=20
Brickel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In his message below, he calls another =
member a=20
"Zombie Kook" and characterizes his </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>messages as "rants"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>He has posted such stuff before to this =

list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I beleive this is against the rules. =
</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Albert Brickel</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A> ; <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Stephane Bortzmeyer</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 06, 2003 =
10:58</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ga] Posting =
rights of Jeff=20
  Williams suspended for 14 days.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px =
solid">
    <P>Scroll to the bottom of the list for Jeff Williams lies and =
antics in=20
    2003.</P>
    <P>In response to the following rants from Jeff (Zombie-Kook) =
Williams find=20
    below some appropriate information: </P>
    <P>FROM: Jason Watkins <BR>DATE: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:51:22 -0700 =
(PDT)=20
    <BR>TO: &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
g.de</A>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    [atlarge-discuss] Reminder: Jeff Williams is mentally Ill </P>
    <P><BR>Just a reminder and a repost of the Jeff Williams FAQ.&nbsp; =
I see=20
    that Jeff Williams has been writing not as an individual, but in the =
plural=20
    again.&nbsp; Using phrases like "At such time as we [INEGroup] have =
done a=20
    complete review" This is just a reminder that INEG group does not =
exist,=20
    that Jeff Williams is not to be taken seriously, and that he speaks =
only for=20
    himself and not for a group of over 100,000 people.&nbsp; Frankly it =
is sad,=20
    and I wish he would get help.&nbsp; Regular readers will ignore his =
inane=20
    ramblings, but new readers may be tricked into replying. Among the=20
    "nutsy-cukoo" things he has said in the last few weeks are: That he =
met=20
    personally with President George Bush in Waco Texas and that he is =
having=20
    secret email conversations with government officials. Here is the =
rest of=20
    the FAQ: <BR>Jeff Williams' FAQ. (99/01) <BR>-- 1. Who is Jeff =
Williams?=20
    Jeffrey A. Williams,&nbsp; has claimed in postings to various lists: =
<BR>--=20
    to be the Chief Executive Off! icer and the Co-Founder of the 4.8 =
billion=20
    dollar privately held employee owned INEG. INC <BR>-- to be the =
Director of=20
    Internet Network Engineering and Senior Java/CORBA Engineer for the=20
    Information Network Engineering Group, INEG INC. <BR>-- to be an =
ex-IBM=20
    Fellow, <BR>-- to have to have graduated from UTD and to have a law =
degree=20
    from SMU Law School <BR>-- to have three degrees, MBA, Masters in =
Computer=20
    Science and Engineering, and Law <BR>-- to have served as a judge =
for 7=20
    years <BR>-- to be a member of the IETF -- to serve on several =
medium sized=20
    business boards and on the boards of several banks <BR>-- to be the =
author=20
    of two books and is working on a third <BR>-- to own 3 ISPs, =
including=20
    Frisco net, Deltanet and Wiltel, with 1.6 million users <BR>-- to =
have been=20
    a fighter pilot with USMC, flying missions in Chile and for the DEA, =
as a=20
    reserve pilot in the USMC, stationed out of Grand Prairie air =
station just=20
    south of Dallas <BR>-- to have been acting squadron commander o! f =
the=20
    Marine combat F4 squadron VMF214 (Black Sheep) at Tan Son Nhut =
during the=20
    Viet Nam war <BR>-- to have spent several years in NIS (Naval =
Investigative=20
    Service) <BR>-- Graduate of Naval Staff &amp; War College <BR>-- =
Retired=20
    Colonel, United States Marine Corps -- to own 8% of eBay </P>
    <P>However, <BR>-- Jeff's 'INEG. INC' does not exist except as a =
fantasy in=20
    Jeff Williams' mind. <BR>-- Jeff changed the name of the company in =
his=20
    .sig, in Jan 1998, from&nbsp; 'Information Eng. Group' to =
Information=20
    Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC., when the real Information =
Engineering Group=20
    &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.ieg-america.com/">http://www.ieg-america.com/</A>&gt;,=
=20
    became aware of Jeff's use of their name. <BR>-- SMU Law School =
Registrar's=20
    office, (214) 768-2618, disclaims all knowledge of Jeff. Jeffrey A. =
Williams=20
    is a fake and an imposter. <BR>-- 2. Why should I take care in =
sending=20
    private email to Jeff Williams? He may post it to the list. =
Ironically, in=20
    his postings of others' private email so far the content has been=20
    counter-productive to his reputation and credibility. You should =
presume any=20
    email to him will posted to the list. <BR>-- 3. Is there other =
material=20
    available on Jeff Williams? <BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/03504.html">h! =

    =
ttp://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/03504.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05347.html">htt=
p://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05347.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05398.html">htt=
p://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05398.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05525.html">htt=
p://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05525.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/08015.html">htt=
p://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/08015.html</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </P>
    <P>Please find below some additional claims he has made in 2002, =
regarding=20
    his exploits: <BR>1.&nbsp; worked at CMA (an IT consulting firm) =
developing=20
    management principals (his spelling not mine) <BR>2.&nbsp; worked =
for the=20
    United States government on a program called Krypto (must be top =
secret=20
    because a Google search reveals only that it was the dog companion =
of=20
    Superboy) <BR>3.&nbsp; worked for Systems Administration, =
Networking, and=20
    Security Institute (sans.org) on BIND security <BR>4.&nbsp; worked =
for the=20
    Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) in Public Key Infrastructure =
(PKI)=20
    <BR>5.&nbsp; worked for the Vietnam Veterans Association =
<BR>6.&nbsp; worked=20
    for the Dallas Businessmen's Association (a Google search revealed =
no such=20
    organization) <BR>7.&nbsp; worked for the United States Department =
of=20
    Defense as a project coordinator on the Advanced Research Projects =
Agency=20
    Network (ARPANET) <BR>8.&nbsp; worked for the World Trade =
Organization on=20
    General Agreement on Tariffs an! d Trade (GATT) <BR>9.&nbsp; worked =
on the=20
    North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) <BR>10.&nbsp; attended =
the=20
    Economic Summit meeting held by President George. W. Bush in Waco, =
TX, in=20
    August, 2002 <BR>11.&nbsp; worked for the Internet Engineering Task =
Force=20
    (IETF) for six (6) years on Internet Protocol Version 6 =
<BR>12.&nbsp; flew=20
    F-4, F-14, F-18 jets for the United States Marine Corps but is now=20
    retired<BR>13.&nbsp; is a private pilot<BR>14.&nbsp; to have served =
as a=20
    county judge for 1 year 8 months<BR>15.&nbsp; has a law degree and=20
    specializes in trademark, business, and antitrust law<BR>16.&nbsp; =
given=20
    award as "Outstanding Texan" by Texas Chamber of Commerce in 1998 =
(Google=20
    search reveals Chamber of Commerce are by city only; there is no =
Texas State=20
    Chamber of Commerce)<BR>16.&nbsp; performs volunteer police work =
(and=20
    carries a gun!) once a month in the state of Texas<BR>17.&nbsp; =
claims=20
    membership in both Texas State Republican Party and Texas State =
Democratic=20
    Party Ca! ucuses<BR>18.&nbsp; his family has six attorneys on =
retainer, two=20
    for him, two for his elderly parents, and one each for his=20
    daughters<BR>19.&nbsp; teaches speed reading and basic reading =
courses to=20
    underprivileged children and adults (where does he find the time to =
do all=20
    this and still rant online?) <BR>20.&nbsp; claims to have US$4555 in =
a trust=20
    account held for icannatlarge.org but will not reveal name of bank =
nor=20
    provide any proof of account (and says that he can raise US$100K =
more with=20
    little effort)<BR>21.&nbsp; is working with Richard Clark, Chairman =
of the=20
    U.S. Critical Infrastructure Protection Board (Cybersecurity Czar) =
and=20
    Andrew Card, Chief of Staff of U.S. President Geo. W. Bush =
Whitehouse=20
    Administration, on cyber security issues<BR>22.&nbsp; has over 23 =
years=20
    experience starting up companies including non-profit=20
    corporations<BR>23.&nbsp; intimidated and threatened to report a =
fellow=20
    member of ICANNatLarge.org to the U.S. Homeland Security Department =
and the=20
    F.B.! I. for making a comment about President Bush (he claims to be =
on=20
    speaking terms with department managements)<BR>&nbsp; <BR>The above =
items=20
    are directly from his OWN statements:<BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0207/msg00457.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0207/msg00457.html</A>=20
    <BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00619.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00619.html</A>=20
    <BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00657.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00657.html</A>=20
    <BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0209/msg00584.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0209/msg00584.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00641.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00641.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00654.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00654.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0!210/msg00675.html">http://w=
ww.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00675.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg01053.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg01053.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00106.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00106.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00200.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00200.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00303.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00303.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00313.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00313.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00410.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00410.html</A><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga-full/Arc11/msg02724.html">http:=
//www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga-full/Arc11/msg02724.html</A>=20
    <BR>Some other s! ources for the "real" Jeff Williams:<BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/clone/jeffwilliams/">http://www.angelfir=
e.com/clone/jeffwilliams/</A></P>
    <P>Please find below some additional claims he has made in 2003, =
regarding=20
    his exploits:<BR>1.&nbsp; alleges to be in the United States =
Government=20
    Federal Registry but a federal registry does not exist; although =
there is a=20
    Federal Register it has no association with any Jeff Williams =
persona=20
    regarding related fields or topics near what the Zombi/Kook rants =
(find out=20
    for yourself at <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces140.html">http://www.a=
ccess.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces140.html</A>)<BR>see:=20
    <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0301/msg00258">http://www.fit=
ug.de/atlarge-discuss/0301/msg00258</A>.<BR>2.&nbsp;=20
    claims to be a wireless internet provider for China although his =
fictitious=20
    company is not remotely connected with ISP and there is no reference =

    anywhere through Google that mentions INEG and China in the same =
search=20
    except for postings by Jeff Williams (which means he references =
himself as=20
    proof he exists)<BR>see: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarg!e-discuss/0303/msg00242.html">http://w=
ww.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html</A>=20
    <BR>3.&nbsp; seems to have attracted another 2 thousand fictitious =
members=20
    to his fake corporation (from 127k to 129k) as stated by his=20
    signature<BR>see: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html</A>=20
    <BR>4.&nbsp; accused a fellow member of ICANNatLarge.org of cheating =
the=20
    outcome of several internet based elections and when challenged he =
only made=20
    more unfounded accusations and provided no proof<BR>see: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0302/msg00400.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0302/msg00400.html</A>=20
    <BR>5.&nbsp; always talks about members of INEG attending various =
internet=20
    related meetings but nobody ever sees them or speaks with them or =
even finds=20
    anyone wearing an INEG name tag , and Jeff always says "they are too =
busy to=20
    meet with you"<BR>see: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-disc!uss/0303/msg00247.html">http://w=
ww.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00247.html</A>=20
    <BR>6.&nbsp; claims to be one of the originators of ARPANET<BR>see: =
<A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00331.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00331.html</A><BR>7.&nbsp;=20
    claims to be an employee of the United States Government and =
threatened to=20
    sue another member as well as inform both U.S. and Canadian =
authorities of=20
    alleged illegal activities (the member was charged by Jeff of =
supposedly=20
    mailing the membership list without authority)<BR>see: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00082.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00082.html</A><BR>8.&nbsp;=20
    claims to have over $6700 in funds for ICANNatLarge organization but =
does=20
    not provide proof the money exists<BR>see: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00192.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00192.html</A><BR>9.&nbsp;=20
    claims to be an informant for the Fed! eral Bureau of Investigation =
(F.B.I.)=20
    of the United States Government<BR>see: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00451.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00451.html</A><BR>10.&nbsp;=20
    talks about the openness and transparency of his alleged INEGroup =
but has=20
    never revealed even one member's name and, if pressured, will state =
that one=20
    can get the membership list via a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) =
request=20
    by the United States Government law allowing access to records of =
Federal=20
    agencies (but he states that it is available from the FEC which is =
the=20
    Federal Election Commission which has nothing to do with INEGroup=20
    members)<BR>see: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00466.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00466.html</A>=20
    <BR>11.&nbsp; claims to have over 11K members in INEGroup from =
mainland=20
    China<BR>see: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0305/msg00068.html">http://ww=
w.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0305/msg00!=20
    068.html</A><BR>&nbsp;<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
  <P>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com">T=
he New=20
  Yahoo! Search</A> - Faster. Easier. Bingo.</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C313CD.F2649F90--

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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kirikos <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Even Handed Application of The Rules (Yes or No? - We shall see)  (was Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days).

Hello,

- --- John Palmer <[email-masked]> wrote:
> In his message below, he calls another member a "Zombie Kook" and
> characterizes his 
> messages as "rants"
> 
> He has posted such stuff before to this list.
> 
> I beleive this is against the rules. 

It'd only be against the rules if making preposterous claims of
representing 129,000 members is also against the rules. 

Sincerely,

George Kirikos
http://www.kirikos.com/
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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 11:05:02 +1200
From: Joop Teernstra <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Re: Even Handed Application of The Rules (Yes or No? - We shall see)  (was Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days).

At 06:52 a.m. 7/05/2003, George Kirikos wrote:

>It'd only be against the rules if making preposterous claims of
>representing 129,000 members is also against the rules.

Good rules incorporate a procedure to challenge false statements, which are 
a  bigger and more insidious problem than  insults and ad-hominems that 
generally backfire on the offender.
A statement, when challenged, must be proven true by the maker of the 
statement, or else.

BTW, as a matter of interest, a poll among icannatlarge listmembers 
revealed that more than 63% are in favor of a mailing list with Rules.
The comments are of interest.
http://www.icannatlarge.com/results-may4a.htm

- -joop-

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Karl Auerbach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] ALAC on ccNSO 

On Tue, 6 May 2003, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

> ... You may also have noticed that
> the differences between the positions of ICANN and of most ccTLD
> managers have been substantially bridged in the last months, thanks to
> a great amount of good will by everyone involved.

I've noticed rather the opposite - that positions are hardening and that 
the gap between ICANN and the cc community is greater than ever.

About the only real change that has occurred is that ICANN (or was it
IANA, can one ever tell the difference?) withdrew the demand for zone file
access as a precondition to updating ccTLD NS (name server) records.  
[Given the ferver with which ICANN (or IANA) defended the practice, it was
amusing to see it be suddenly withdran based on a hidden decision by a
hidden person, i.e. without a clear, open, transparent, or accountable
process - capricious behavior and processes are in themselves bad things
even if the decision that is made is, apart from the process, a good one.]

It is my sense that the bigger cc's are learning that they can simply
ignore ICANN (the list of large non paying countries is significant - i.e.  
the countries not listed on
http://www.icann.org/financials/cctld-2002/cctld-contributions-01-02.htm)  
And the United States (the biggest non-payer) completely bypassed ICANN
when it decided to redelegate .us.

And the smaller countries, particularly developing ones, seem to be
becoming more aware of the fact that the availability of IANA services
does not require a signature on an ICANN contract.

I personally give a lot of credit to the cc assertion that the country
code operators themselves tend to represent the citizens of their
respective nations and that obviates the need for a separate user channel
into ICANN's cc mechanisms.  However, I also tend to be somewhat wary of
potentially bootstraping/self-supporting kinds of claim.

		--karl--

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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 14:08:53 +1200
From: Joop Teernstra <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] ALAC on ccNSO 

At 11:34 a.m. 7/05/2003, Karl Auerbach wrote:

>I personally give a lot of credit to the cc assertion that the country
>code operators themselves tend to represent the citizens of their
>respective nations and that obviates the need for a separate user channel
>into ICANN's cc mechanisms.  However, I also tend to be somewhat wary of
>potentially bootstraping/self-supporting kinds of claim.

Karl,

I agree with the need for the separate user channel into both ICANN's gtld 
and cc mechanisms. But can you elaborate on your  reservation?

How do you see the best way for the users to get representation into the 
"cc mechanism?"
A hundred separate user-efforts for each individual cc management?
Or the CIRA-model or the .uk model as a template?

- -joop-

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:58:07 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] New website

for your amusement:

http://www.icannia.org

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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 05:45:35 +0200
From: "J-F C. (Jefsey)  Morfin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] ALAC on ccNSO 

On 04:08 07/05/03, Joop Teernstra said:
>How do you see the best way for the users to get representation into the 
>"cc mechanism?"
>A hundred separate user-efforts for each individual cc management?
>Or the CIRA-model or the .uk model as a template?

Dear Joop,
as you may have noticed there are 190 different states, constitutions, 
flags and 5000 languages for 60 types of scripts, millions of names, and 
billions of people. When they relates in many different ways that makes a 
zillions of potential networks.

Only ICANN think that an electronic support of that relations can have a 
singl model (contract) and can be centralized. There is a need probably for 
several millions of TLDs and millions of root systems for a probable 600 
billions user agents. ICANN is a technically outdated concept with the only 
political purpose to delay the new generation networks, the time the US 
industry may adapt to a new world evolution it has some problems to grasp 
because for the first time the USA become world dependant. In this ICANN 
plays its normal role of an US Network agency.

To give it more importance than any other national agency (what he current 
concept of ccTLD hides from Govs) would be a grave disservice to your 
country (to each of our countrie) and to the global development of the 
Network. The internet is by nature the interconnexion of thousands of 
networks (ISP, corporate, etc.). It cannot be ruled. It can only be served.

Let not confuse the real issue (the satsifaction of the users trhough 
network services) and the politicking of a few to get money, power, fame, 
fun, etc. through Joe Sims' baby. You know that I alsways rooted the 
failure of the IDNO in its internationalism. Networks are multilateral.

An eample today is he difficulty of ICANN with IDN .... insteal of multiDNs
jfc

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------------------------------

End of GA-DIGEST V1 #1687
*************************