Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #1686
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST            Tuesday, May 6 2003            Volume 01 : Number 1686

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 02:17:37 -0400
From: Joanna Lane <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] ALAC on ccNSO

For the benefit of those who are not as familiar with the two sets of
recommendations as we might wish, would somebody please point out the
fundamental differences between the two documents. Danny?

Thanks,
Regards,
Joanna

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Sotiris
> Sotiropoulos
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:47 PM
> To: Joop Teernstra
> Cc: Jeanette Hofmann; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [ga] ALAC on ccNSO
>
>
>
>
> Joop Teernstra wrote:
>
> > At 08:50 a.m. 6/05/2003, Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
> >
> >> On 4 May 2003 at 21:39, [email-masked] wrote:
> >>
> >> > Vittorio,
> >> >
> >> > You wrote:  "The Interim At Large Advisory Committee supports the
> >> idea of a
> >> > Country
> >> > Code Names Supporting Organization as devised in the Report
> >> [referring to the
> >> > Fifth Supplemental Implementation Report of ICANN's Evolution and
> >> Reform
> >> > Committee]".  http://forum.icann.org/mail-archive/alac/msg00247.html
> >> >
> >> > May I ask why the ALAC is endorsing the ERC/ccNSO Assistance Group
> >> > recommendations instead of the "Resolutions adopted by the ccTLD
> >> Managers
> >> > meeting in Rio" posted at
> >> > http://www.wwtld.org/meetings/Rio/ccNSO_resolution.html ?
> >> >
> >> > How did you arrive at your conclusion?
> >>
> >> I find these questions very valid and would care for an answer by ALAC
> >> members.
> >
> >
> > So would I.
>
>
> Consider the interest factor trebled.
>
> --Sotiris
>
>
> --
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:12:36 +0200
From: Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] ALAC on ccNSO 

On Sun, 4 May 2003 21:39:25 EDT, you wrote:

>Vittorio,
>
>You wrote:  "The Interim At Large Advisory Committee supports the idea of a 
>Country
>Code Names Supporting Organization as devised in the Report [referring to the 
>Fifth Supplemental Implementation Report of ICANN's Evolution and Reform 
>Committee]".  http://forum.icann.org/mail-archive/alac/msg00247.html
>
>May I ask why the ALAC is endorsing the ERC/ccNSO Assistance Group 
>recommendations instead of the "Resolutions adopted by the ccTLD Managers 
>meeting in Rio" posted at 
>http://www.wwtld.org/meetings/Rio/ccNSO_resolution.html ?
>
>How did you arrive at your conclusion?
>
>In your view, why should users support a proposition that calls for three 
>top-down appointed members selected by the Nominating Committee to meddle in 
>the affairs of this SO?
>
>By the way, why did you agree to five top-down appointees being placed on the 
>ALAC?  ...or do you just automatically agree to everything that ICANN imposes?

Quite simply, we are now in the comment period for the first document,
so we are going to comment that one. You may also have noticed that
the differences between the positions of ICANN and of most ccTLD
managers have been substantially bridged in the last months, thanks to
a great amount of good will by everyone involved.

Now, for what regards substance, my ideas about the relationships
between ccTLDs and ICANN are very clear and I have been exposing them
publicly a number of times on this list and elsewhere - perhaps the
most extensive discussion can be found here:
http://www.itu.int/itudoc/itu-t/workshop/cctld/cctld049.pdf

In short, I think that ccTLD management is a subject to be dealt with
locally, also given that most ccTLDs have established ways to consult
with and get representation from their local Internet community, and
that the way ICANN set up its relationships with ccTLDs in the past
was fundamentally wrong. (And by the way, do not forget that I do come
from a ccTLD, though I was never involved in representing .it outside
of Italy.)

It is exactly for this reason that I think that the new ccNSO should
be focused on providing a forum for discussion and voluntary consensus
building among ccTLD managers and between them and the other
constituencies, rather than on establishing binding policies. This is
why, personally, I think that having a small number of members on the
ccNSO Council that come from other constituencies and/or from the
general public would help to "fertilize" this discussion. Moreover,
the ccTLD managers resolutions are not against this idea, they simply
ask for more ccTLD seats on the Nominating Committee in exchange for
that - and I imagine that if that is not possible, another compromise
solution on this point might be found.

Finally, I want to note a few things.

First, the post you referred to is not an official ALAC position, but
just my draft for it. I guess that the details of the statement might
change reflecting the comments of other ALAC members and the
suggestions coming from this discussion. That's what public comment
periods are for.

Second, I do not "agree" to "appointees being placed...", in the sense
that it is not my role or the role of the ALAC to approve or reject
this kind of decisions; there is a proper process to take decisions on
these matters, and in fact such decisions regarding the structure of
the ALAC were already taken a long ago. Of course I may and will send
opinions and proposals on the subjects that are being discussed and on
those that I think should be discussed, and you may note that my
original proposals for the ALAC never included top-down appointments
by the NomCom as a preferential option, but it is not in my powers to
take any decisions on these matters.

And finally, just a couple of weeks ago on this list you were
protesting against the fact that the proposed ccNSO would be mostly
limited to ccTLD managers and not sufficiently open for participation
by other constituencies (I am referring to
http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc12/msg01089.html). So I don't
understand why now you are so strongly arguing that we should oppose
one of the main elements of "external" participation in the ccNSO.
- -- 
vb.                  [Vittorio Bertola - vb [at] bertola.eu.org]<---
- -------------------> http://bertola.eu.org/ <-----------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:46:07 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days.

On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 05:30:03PM +0100,
 Richard Henderson <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 143 lines which said:

> "ALAC, whose goal is to legitimitize the total elimination of public
> representation on the Board of ICANN"... yep... the whole point of ALAC is
> to minimise and contain the impact of the internet user community and to
...
> ICANN is regarded with disdain because it is perceived as a self-serving
> clique of insiders, working on behalf of the US Government,
...
> The comments of Jeff Williams were insubstantial.

I hope that nobody will accuse me of defending the US government or
its front in Marina del Rey but you raise an important point: besides
Jeff Williams' empty and useless contributions, there is the issue of
"at large" involvment (I use lowercase to emphasize that I talk about
the concept of "at large" participation, not the actual attempts by
ICANN to organize it.)

IMHO, there is still no serious way to build a real democracy online:
the various "at large" attempts are a proof by experience that the
situation is not ready yet. This GA list is a typical
example. Discussions are focused on the intense activities of a few
trolls like Joe Baptista. Although some people like Vittoria Bertola
and yourself try to stay calm and to express their views in a way that
reasonable people could read and understand, and although these
reasonable people are probably the majority, nervertheless, the
debates revolve around a few jerks which are not connected to any
actual practice.

Not having any responsability, they can work full-time sending
messages on the GA list, screaming "censorship" and "fascism" at every
possible opportunity.

I have no suggestions at the present time. I just wanted to
acknowledge that the ICANN at least tried (and failed). I strongly
hope that the idea of an Internet democracy will raise again and will
be successful next time but I have no idea how.

> mentality which could be seen as institutionally fascist and arrogant.

Here, I agree with Vittorio: the real fascists are people who kill,
torture and mutilate. They do not try to silence you by suspending
your posting rights on a mailing list for two weeks. They shoot you
right now. Calling the administrators of this mailing list "facists"
is a insult to the victims of the real fascists. (It's like saying
"genocide" for every murder: you blur the responsability of the real
genociders.)

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:41:43 +0100
From: "Abel Wisman" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Reminder of GA List Moderation Guidelines

Ross, and list,

When Thomas's chairmanship of the list ended, simultaneous with the end
of the GA and GNSO, "interim" moderators were announced, being Ross W
Rader and me.

Ross once decided to suspend posting privs without notifying or
conferring with me, this was an oversight that was not to happen again
(according to Ross, in whom I have faith).

For me however the strangest part has been that I was never given any
access to the list' workings in order to either suspend or end
suspension, nonetheless I was appointed moderator.

The suspension of JW was not discussed with me, my opinion not sought
and done by someone who supposedly no longer should or could be a
moderator of this list.

I would dearly like clarification of this matter.

Kind regards

Abel Wisman

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Ross Wm.
Rader
Sent: 06 May 2003 00:19
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] Reminder of GA List Moderation Guidelines

Folks,

Over the last 24 hours there has been a lot of conversation regarding
moderation of the GA-List. 

First, I'd like to point out that most of this traffic has been
off-topic. 

Second, I'd like to remind everyone that there are moderation guidelines
in place that everyone, by virtue of having subscribed to this list, has
agreed to play by. My hope is that moderation on this list will be found
in your respective capabilities to engage in a modest level of
self-control and respect for one another. Failing that, imposed
moderation will continue to be the default rule. 

From: http://www.dnso.org/mailinglists.html

1. Anybody interested in the [GNSO] issues may subscribe to this list,
only subscribers may write to this list 
2. Two main principles since the origin of this server in June 1999,
explained in the welcome message sent by majordomo to every new
subscriber: 
 - the non cross-posting rule is reinforced 
 - the respect of participants is mandatory 
3. More explicit rules of order defined in
http://www.dnso.org/dnso/notes/2000.GA-ga-rules.html 
4. More about GA list monitoring in
http://www.dnso.org/dnso/notes/GA.list-monitoring.html 
5. Currently, there is a limit of FIVE postings per day on the GA
mailing list 
6. To subscribe (or unsubscribe) to the General Assembly list, please
send an email to [email-masked] with the words subscribe ga (or
unsubscribe ga) in the body of the message. 

                       -rwr

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of
thought which they seldom use."
- - Soren Kierkegaard

Get Blog... http://www.byte.org/

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:09:48 -0400
From: "L. Gallegos" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days.

Stephane,

I would be interested in your definition of "troll."  Is it language or 
content?  Attitude?

I ask because I get the impression that you categorize ICANN critics as 
trolls while those who play into the games that ICANN plays are not.  

I don't defend foul language or ad hominems, certainly.  However, in many 
instances I have overlooked the format, spelling and language to get to 
the meaning of the posts.  

As for the word fascist, the dictionary says this:

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that 
of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual 
and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a 
dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible 
suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or 
dictatorial control 

Where does this definition mention murder or genocide?  Comparisons to 
tyrants like Mussolini are uncalled for, IMO, but the concept of fascism 
is not unlike ICANN's policies or rule either.  For all the rhetoric 
spewed from ICANN, its policies are autocratic, eliminate the voice of the 
public in any meaningful manner and suppress opposition by its actions to 
eliminate the At-Large.  The only difference from the dictionary 
definition, IMO, is exclusion by race.  ICANN is the "nation" that 
supports only its special interests (the few at the top).  It causes 
severe hardship on anyone else.

Please keep in mind that much of my family was lost due to genocide, so I 
am certainly not insensitive to that concept.  I just cannot see where the 
definition of the term fascist automatically equates to murder.  I would 
prefer the term autocracy, but what the heck...

Jefsey (correct me if I misspeak) posted that collaborators  were those 
who infiltrated the occupying regime in order to fight from within and 
possibly influence policy for the benefit of the people.  However, in most 
cases, as was borne out later, collaborators were those who simply 
capitualted and went the easy route to save themselves.  Resistance 
fighters were those who remained true to their countries and countrymen.  
Of course, we have to look at the larger picture.  The occupiers were 
conquerors, not liberators.  They brutalized the economy, people...  Had 
they been liberators, "collaborators" might have been seen as helpful to 
their countrymen.  

So, what do we have here?  Resistance = trolls.  Collaborators = ?  Some 
of the trolls claim that working from within ICANN is a losing battle and 
a waste of time.  Some who "collaborate" feel that one must work from 
within ICANN in order to succeed.

From where I sit, it seems that working from within ICANN will take an 
enormous amount of time and effort for a dubious, and probably dismal, 
result.  In its present form, ICANN will not work for the benefit of the 
greater community no matter what the ALAC does.  It will continue to 
suppress the public and any opposition to the cartel it supports.  Can 
working from within change this?  Doubtful.  

OTOH, there must be some level headed individuals on committees, I 
suppose, or there will be no voice at all anywhere from within ICANN other 
than those who would dictate to the world.  Gee, does that sound a bit 
fascist?  I do have a problem with those who claim to represent users at 
large, but do not do so.  I don't feel that Vittorio represents many 
users' views, nor does Esther.   Therefore, the ALAC does nothing for the 
at-large.

Now if we take this a bit further, all these committees are supposed to 
have some influence on who sits on the BOD.  How much does that matter if 
the BOD takes orders from staff instead of the other way around?  The 
whole thing is so topsy turvy, it is one huge sham that is destroying 
precisely what it is supposed to protect.  It is protecting that which it 
should be protecting against.

As for ruling the list, I am against censorship, but can understand 
admonishments for ad hominem attacks as long as they are even handed.  
Note that I said "admonishments."  Suspension for "useless" or 
unsubstantial posts?  That could cover many posters.

So, Stephane, what is your point?  If we are not "ready" for democracy are 
we to captiulate to autocracy?  I don't think so.  I think we need what 
you call the "trolls" and the vocal minority.  Many times, it is those 
vocal few individuals who really do speak for the majority of users.  
Perhaps not on this list, but in the world - at-large.  

The various attempts, as you called them, can't succeed because they are 
not funded.  It is not because they can't organize, IMO.  The corporation 
should have funded the at-large as it was, and allowed it to organize.  I 
really believe that it is because of ICANN's total lack of credibility and 
its efforts to undermine the at-large that has prevented any semblance of 
democratic evolution.  People are tired and have become apathetic.  ICANN 
has failed miserably.

Leah

P.S.  I deliberately did not address your first statement for obvious 
political reasons.  I felt that first sentence was unnecessary.

On 6 May 2003 at 9:46, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:

> On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 05:30:03PM +0100,
>  Richard Henderson <[email-masked]> wrote 
>  a message of 143 lines which said:
> 
> > "ALAC, whose goal is to legitimitize the total elimination of public
> > representation on the Board of ICANN"... yep... the whole point of ALAC
> > is to minimise and contain the impact of the internet user community and
> > to
> ...
> > ICANN is regarded with disdain because it is perceived as a self-serving
> > clique of insiders, working on behalf of the US Government,
> ...
> > The comments of Jeff Williams were insubstantial.
> 
> I hope that nobody will accuse me of defending the US government or
> its front in Marina del Rey but you raise an important point: besides
> Jeff Williams' empty and useless contributions, there is the issue of
> "at large" involvment (I use lowercase to emphasize that I talk about
> the concept of "at large" participation, not the actual attempts by
> ICANN to organize it.)
> 
> IMHO, there is still no serious way to build a real democracy online:
> the various "at large" attempts are a proof by experience that the
> situation is not ready yet. This GA list is a typical
> example. Discussions are focused on the intense activities of a few
> trolls like Joe Baptista. Although some people like Vittoria Bertola
> and yourself try to stay calm and to express their views in a way that
> reasonable people could read and understand, and although these reasonable
> people are probably the majority, nervertheless, the debates revolve around
> a few jerks which are not connected to any actual practice.
> 
> Not having any responsability, they can work full-time sending
> messages on the GA list, screaming "censorship" and "fascism" at every
> possible opportunity.
> 
> I have no suggestions at the present time. I just wanted to
> acknowledge that the ICANN at least tried (and failed). I strongly
> hope that the idea of an Internet democracy will raise again and will
> be successful next time but I have no idea how.
> 
> > mentality which could be seen as institutionally fascist and arrogant.
> 
> Here, I agree with Vittorio: the real fascists are people who kill,
> torture and mutilate. They do not try to silence you by suspending
> your posting rights on a mailing list for two weeks. They shoot you
> right now. Calling the administrators of this mailing list "facists"
> is a insult to the victims of the real fascists. (It's like saying
> "genocide" for every murder: you blur the responsability of the real
> genociders.)
> 
> --
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> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
> 
> 

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:26:02 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days.

On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 09:09:48AM -0400,
 L. Gallegos <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 161 lines which said:

> I would be interested in your definition of "troll."  Is it language or 
> content?  Attitude?

Attitude. Certainly not content.
 
> I ask because I get the impression that you categorize ICANN critics as 
> trolls while those who play into the games that ICANN plays are not.  

I am quite disappointed that I have to explain this point. But to make
it crystal-clear: I often criticized ICANN myself (see the archives of
the GA mailing list) and many people who do so are certainly not
trolls (I could mention Michael Froomkin for instance).
 
> From where I sit, it seems that working from within ICANN will take an 
> enormous amount of time and effort for a dubious, and probably dismal, 
> result.

I basically agree but it has nothing to do with Joe Baptista's sexist
comments or Jeff Williams' empty and unsubstantial messages.

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Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:52:57 -0400
From: "L. Gallegos" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days.

On 6 May 2003 at 15:26, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:

> > From where I sit, it seems that working from within ICANN will take an
> > enormous amount of time and effort for a dubious, and probably dismal,
> > result.
> 
> I basically agree but it has nothing to do with Joe Baptista's sexist
> comments or Jeff Williams' empty and unsubstantial messages.
> 
> 
Okay, so you object to ad hominems.  I don't like them either.  OTOH, 
unsubstantial messages are annoying, but not reason for suspension.  I 
filter messages.  I see no need to suspend people from posting.  That's 
what filters are for.

As for Joe's posts, I try to read the content and ignore the ad hominems.  
He has a point most of the time, but people tend to see just the sarcasm.  
I won't defend the personal language or sexist remarks, but will defend 
the message.  His style leaves a lot to be desired, but that's Joe.

Jeff's posts are mostly "me too" posts and I generally don't even see 
them.

In any case, I still just use filters and would not suspend posters just 
because they offend my sensibilities.  I try to not feed the trolls 
either. :)

Leah

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Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:02:28 -0400
From: "L. Gallegos" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days.

On 6 May 2003 at 15:26, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:

> > From where I sit, it seems that working from within ICANN will take an
> > enormous amount of time and effort for a dubious, and probably dismal,
> > result.
> 
> I basically agree but it has nothing to do with Joe Baptista's sexist
> comments or Jeff Williams' empty and unsubstantial messages.
> 
> 
Okay, so you object to ad hominems.  I don't like them either.  OTOH, 
unsubstantial messages are annoying, but not reason for suspension.  I 
filter messages.  I see no need to suspend people from posting.  That's 
what filters are for.

As for Joe's posts, I try to read the content and ignore the ad hominems.  
He has a point most of the time, but people tend to see just the sarcasm.  
I won't defend the personal language or sexist remarks, but will defend 
the message.  His style leaves a lot to be desired, but that's Joe.

Jeff's posts are mostly "me too" posts and I generally don't even see 
them.

In any case, I still just use filters and would not suspend posters just 
because they offend my sensibilities.  I try to not feed the trolls 
either. :)

Leah

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Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:58:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Albert Brickel <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Posting rights of Jeff Williams suspended for 14 days.

- --0-1006066788-1052236702=:16364
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Scroll to the bottom of the list for Jeff Williams lies and antics in 2003.

In response to the following rants from Jeff (Zombie-Kook) Williams find below some appropriate information: 

FROM: Jason Watkins 
DATE: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:51:22 -0700 (PDT) 
TO: <[email-masked]>   [atlarge-discuss] Reminder: Jeff Williams is mentally Ill 

Just a reminder and a repost of the Jeff Williams FAQ.  I see that Jeff Williams has been writing not as an individual, but in the plural again.  Using phrases like "At such time as we [INEGroup] have done a complete review" This is just a reminder that INEG group does not exist, that Jeff Williams is not to be taken seriously, and that he speaks only for himself and not for a group of over 100,000 people.  Frankly it is sad, and I wish he would get help.  Regular readers will ignore his inane ramblings, but new readers may be tricked into replying. Among the "nutsy-cukoo" things he has said in the last few weeks are: That he met personally with President George Bush in Waco Texas and that he is having secret email conversations with government officials. Here is the rest of the FAQ: 
Jeff Williams' FAQ. (99/01) 
- -- 1. Who is Jeff Williams? Jeffrey A. Williams,  has claimed in postings to various lists: 
- -- to be the Chief Executive Officer and the Co-Founder of the 4.8 billion dollar privately held employee owned INEG. INC 
- -- to be the Director of Internet Network Engineering and Senior Java/CORBA Engineer for the Information Network Engineering Group, INEG INC. 
- -- to be an ex-IBM Fellow, 
- -- to have to have graduated from UTD and to have a law degree from SMU Law School 
- -- to have three degrees, MBA, Masters in Computer Science and Engineering, and Law 
- -- to have served as a judge for 7 years 
- -- to be a member of the IETF -- to serve on several medium sized business boards and on the boards of several banks 
- -- to be the author of two books and is working on a third 
- -- to own 3 ISPs, including Frisco net, Deltanet and Wiltel, with 1.6 million users 
- -- to have been a fighter pilot with USMC, flying missions in Chile and for the DEA, as a reserve pilot in the USMC, stationed out of Grand Prairie air station just south of Dallas 
- -- to have been acting squadron commander of the Marine combat F4 squadron VMF214 (Black Sheep) at Tan Son Nhut during the Viet Nam war 
- -- to have spent several years in NIS (Naval Investigative Service) 
- -- Graduate of Naval Staff & War College 
- -- Retired Colonel, United States Marine Corps -- to own 8% of eBay 

However, 
- -- Jeff's 'INEG. INC' does not exist except as a fantasy in Jeff Williams' mind. 
- -- Jeff changed the name of the company in his .sig, in Jan 1998, from  'Information Eng. Group' to Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC., when the real Information Engineering Group <http://www.ieg-america.com/>, became aware of Jeff's use of their name. 
- -- SMU Law School Registrar's office, (214) 768-2618, disclaims all knowledge of Jeff. Jeffrey A. Williams is a fake and an imposter. 
- -- 2. Why should I take care in sending private email to Jeff Williams? He may post it to the list. Ironically, in his postings of others' private email so far the content has been counter-productive to his reputation and credibility. You should presume any email to him will posted to the list. 
- -- 3. Is there other material available on Jeff Williams? 
http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/03504.html
http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05347.html
http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05398.html
http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05525.html
http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/08015.html     

Please find below some additional claims he has made in 2002, regarding his exploits: 
1.  worked at CMA (an IT consulting firm) developing management principals (his spelling not mine) 
2.  worked for the United States government on a program called Krypto (must be top secret because a Google search reveals only that it was the dog companion of Superboy) 
3.  worked for Systems Administration, Networking, and Security Institute (sans.org) on BIND security 
4.  worked for the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) in Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) 
5.  worked for the Vietnam Veterans Association 
6.  worked for the Dallas Businessmen's Association (a Google search revealed no such organization) 
7.  worked for the United States Department of Defense as a project coordinator on the Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET) 
8.  worked for the World Trade Organization on General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) 
9.  worked on the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) 
10.  attended the Economic Summit meeting held by President George. W. Bush in Waco, TX, in August, 2002 
11.  worked for the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) for six (6) years on Internet Protocol Version 6 
12.  flew F-4, F-14, F-18 jets for the United States Marine Corps but is now retired
13.  is a private pilot
14.  to have served as a county judge for 1 year 8 months
15.  has a law degree and specializes in trademark, business, and antitrust law
16.  given award as "Outstanding Texan" by Texas Chamber of Commerce in 1998 (Google search reveals Chamber of Commerce are by city only; there is no Texas State Chamber of Commerce)
16.  performs volunteer police work (and carries a gun!) once a month in the state of Texas
17.  claims membership in both Texas State Republican Party and Texas State Democratic Party Caucuses
18.  his family has six attorneys on retainer, two for him, two for his elderly parents, and one each for his daughters
19.  teaches speed reading and basic reading courses to underprivileged children and adults (where does he find the time to do all this and still rant online?) 
20.  claims to have US$4555 in a trust account held for icannatlarge.org but will not reveal name of bank nor provide any proof of account (and says that he can raise US$100K more with little effort)
21.  is working with Richard Clark, Chairman of the U.S. Critical Infrastructure Protection Board (Cybersecurity Czar) and Andrew Card, Chief of Staff of U.S. President Geo. W. Bush Whitehouse Administration, on cyber security issues
22.  has over 23 years experience starting up companies including non-profit corporations
23.  intimidated and threatened to report a fellow member of ICANNatLarge.org to the U.S. Homeland Security Department and the F.B.I. for making a comment about President Bush (he claims to be on speaking terms with department managements)
  
The above items are directly from his OWN statements:
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0207/msg00457.html 
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00619.html 
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00657.html 
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0209/msg00584.html
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00641.html
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00654.html
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00675.html
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg01053.html
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00106.html
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00200.html
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00303.html
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00313.html
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00410.html
http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga-full/Arc11/msg02724.html 
Some other sources for the "real" Jeff Williams:
http://www.angelfire.com/clone/jeffwilliams/

Please find below some additional claims he has made in 2003, regarding his exploits:
1.  alleges to be in the United States Government Federal Registry but a federal registry does not exist; although there is a Federal Register it has no association with any Jeff Williams persona regarding related fields or topics near what the Zombi/Kook rants (find out for yourself at http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces140.html)
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0301/msg00258.
2.  claims to be a wireless internet provider for China although his fictitious company is not remotely connected with ISP and there is no reference anywhere through Google that mentions INEG and China in the same search except for postings by Jeff Williams (which means he references himself as proof he exists)
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html 
3.  seems to have attracted another 2 thousand fictitious members to his fake corporation (from 127k to 129k) as stated by his signature
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html 
4.  accused a fellow member of ICANNatLarge.org of cheating the outcome of several internet based elections and when challenged he only made more unfounded accusations and provided no proof
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0302/msg00400.html 
5.  always talks about members of INEG attending various internet related meetings but nobody ever sees them or speaks with them or even finds anyone wearing an INEG name tag , and Jeff always says "they are too busy to meet with you"
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00247.html 
6.  claims to be one of the originators of ARPANET
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00331.html
7.  claims to be an employee of the United States Government and threatened to sue another member as well as inform both U.S. and Canadian authorities of alleged illegal activities (the member was charged by Jeff of supposedly mailing the membership list without authority)
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00082.html
8.  claims to have over $6700 in funds for ICANNatLarge organization but does not provide proof the money exists
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00192.html
9.  claims to be an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (F.B.I.) of the United States Government
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00451.html
10.  talks about the openness and transparency of his alleged INEGroup but has never revealed even one member's name and, if pressured, will state that one can get the membership list via a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request by the United States Government law allowing access to records of Federal agencies (but he states that it is available from the FEC which is the Federal Election Commission which has nothing to do with INEGroup members)
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00466.html 
11.  claims to have over 11K members in INEGroup from mainland China
see: http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0305/msg00068.html

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<DIV><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<P>Scroll to the bottom of the list for Jeff Williams lies and antics in 2003.</P>
<P>In response to the following rants from Jeff (Zombie-Kook) Williams find below some appropriate information: </P>
<P>FROM: Jason Watkins <BR>DATE: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:51:22 -0700 (PDT) <BR>TO: &lt;<A href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; [atlarge-discuss] Reminder: Jeff Williams is mentally Ill </P>
<P><BR>Just a reminder and a repost of the Jeff Williams FAQ.&nbsp; I see that Jeff Williams has been writing not as an individual, but in the plural again.&nbsp; Using phrases like "At such time as we [INEGroup] have done a complete review" This is just a reminder that INEG group does not exist, that Jeff Williams is not to be taken seriously, and that he speaks only for himself and not for a group of over 100,000 people.&nbsp; Frankly it is sad, and I wish he would get help.&nbsp; Regular readers will ignore his inane ramblings, but new readers may be tricked into replying. Among the "nutsy-cukoo" things he has said in the last few weeks are: That he met personally with President George Bush in Waco Texas and that he is having secret email conversations with government officials. Here is the rest of the FAQ: <BR>Jeff Williams' FAQ. (99/01) <BR>-- 1. Who is Jeff Williams? Jeffrey A. Williams,&nbsp; has claimed in postings to various lists: <BR>-- to be the Chief Executive Officer and the Co-Founder of the 4.8 billion dollar privately held employee owned INEG. INC <BR>-- to be the Director of Internet Network Engineering and Senior Java/CORBA Engineer for the Information Network Engineering Group, INEG INC. <BR>-- to be an ex-IBM Fellow, <BR>-- to have to have graduated from UTD and to have a law degree from SMU Law School <BR>-- to have three degrees, MBA, Masters in Computer Science and Engineering, and Law <BR>-- to have served as a judge for 7 years <BR>-- to be a member of the IETF -- to serve on several medium sized business boards and on the boards of several banks <BR>-- to be the author of two books and is working on a third <BR>-- to own 3 ISPs, including Frisco net, Deltanet and Wiltel, with 1.6 million users <BR>-- to have been a fighter pilot with USMC, flying missions in Chile and for the DEA, as a reserve pilot in the USMC, stationed out of Grand Prairie air station just south of Dallas <BR>-- to have been acting squadron commander of the Marine combat F4 squadron VMF214 (Black Sheep) at Tan Son Nhut during the Viet Nam war <BR>-- to have spent several years in NIS (Naval Investigative Service) <BR>-- Graduate of Naval Staff &amp; War College <BR>-- Retired Colonel, United States Marine Corps -- to own 8% of eBay </P>
<P>However, <BR>-- Jeff's 'INEG. INC' does not exist except as a fantasy in Jeff Williams' mind. <BR>-- Jeff changed the name of the company in his .sig, in Jan 1998, from&nbsp; 'Information Eng. Group' to Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC., when the real Information Engineering Group &lt;<A href="http://www.ieg-america.com/">http://www.ieg-america.com/</A>&gt;, became aware of Jeff's use of their name. <BR>-- SMU Law School Registrar's office, (214) 768-2618, disclaims all knowledge of Jeff. Jeffrey A. Williams is a fake and an imposter. <BR>-- 2. Why should I take care in sending private email to Jeff Williams? He may post it to the list. Ironically, in his postings of others' private email so far the content has been counter-productive to his reputation and credibility. You should presume any email to him will posted to the list. <BR>-- 3. Is there other material available on Jeff Williams? <BR><A href="http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/03504.html">http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/03504.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05347.html">http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05347.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05398.html">http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05398.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05525.html">http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/05525.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/08015.html">http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/08015.html</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </P>
<P>Please find below some additional claims he has made in 2002, regarding his exploits: <BR>1.&nbsp; worked at CMA (an IT consulting firm) developing management principals (his spelling not mine) <BR>2.&nbsp; worked for the United States government on a program called Krypto (must be top secret because a Google search reveals only that it was the dog companion of Superboy) <BR>3.&nbsp; worked for Systems Administration, Networking, and Security Institute (sans.org) on BIND security <BR>4.&nbsp; worked for the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) in Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) <BR>5.&nbsp; worked for the Vietnam Veterans Association <BR>6.&nbsp; worked for the Dallas Businessmen's Association (a Google search revealed no such organization) <BR>7.&nbsp; worked for the United States Department of Defense as a project coordinator on the Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET) <BR>8.&nbsp; worked for the World Trade Organization on General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) <BR>9.&nbsp; worked on the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) <BR>10.&nbsp; attended the Economic Summit meeting held by President George. W. Bush in Waco, TX, in August, 2002 <BR>11.&nbsp; worked for the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) for six (6) years on Internet Protocol Version 6 <BR>12.&nbsp; flew F-4, F-14, F-18 jets for the United States Marine Corps but is now retired<BR>13.&nbsp; is a private pilot<BR>14.&nbsp; to have served as a county judge for 1 year 8 months<BR>15.&nbsp; has a law degree and specializes in trademark, business, and antitrust law<BR>16.&nbsp; given award as "Outstanding Texan" by Texas Chamber of Commerce in 1998 (Google search reveals Chamber of Commerce are by city only; there is no Texas State Chamber of Commerce)<BR>16.&nbsp; performs volunteer police work (and carries a gun!) once a month in the state of Texas<BR>17.&nbsp; claims membership in both Texas State Republican Party and Texas State Democratic Party Caucuses<BR>18.&nbsp; his family has six attorneys on retainer, two for him, two for his elderly parents, and one each for his daughters<BR>19.&nbsp; teaches speed reading and basic reading courses to underprivileged children and adults (where does he find the time to do all this and still rant online?) <BR>20.&nbsp; claims to have US$4555 in a trust account held for icannatlarge.org but will not reveal name of bank nor provide any proof of account (and says that he can raise US$100K more with little effort)<BR>21.&nbsp; is working with Richard Clark, Chairman of the U.S. Critical Infrastructure Protection Board (Cybersecurity Czar) and Andrew Card, Chief of Staff of U.S. President Geo. W. Bush Whitehouse Administration, on cyber security issues<BR>22.&nbsp; has over 23 years experience starting up companies including non-profit corporations<BR>23.&nbsp; intimidated and threatened to report a fellow member of ICANNatLarge.org to the U.S. Homeland Security Department and the F.B.I. for making a comment about President Bush (he claims to be on speaking terms with department managements)<BR>&nbsp; <BR>The above items are directly from his OWN statements:<BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0207/msg00457.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0207/msg00457.html</A> <BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00619.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00619.html</A> <BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00657.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00657.html</A> <BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0209/msg00584.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0209/msg00584.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00641.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00641.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00654.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00654.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00675.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg00675.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg01053.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0210/msg01053.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00106.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00106.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00200.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00200.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00303.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00303.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00313.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00313.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00410.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0211/msg00410.html</A><BR><A href="http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga-full/Arc11/msg02724.html">http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga-full/Arc11/msg02724.html</A> <BR>Some other sources for the "real" Jeff Williams:<BR><A href="http://www.angelfire.com/clone/jeffwilliams/">http://www.angelfire.com/clone/jeffwilliams/</A></P>
<P>Please find below some additional claims he has made in 2003, regarding his exploits:<BR>1.&nbsp; alleges to be in the United States Government Federal Registry but a federal registry does not exist; although there is a Federal Register it has no association with any Jeff Williams persona regarding related fields or topics near what the Zombi/Kook rants (find out for yourself at <A href="http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces140.html">http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces140.html</A>)<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0301/msg00258">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0301/msg00258</A>.<BR>2.&nbsp; claims to be a wireless internet provider for China although his fictitious company is not remotely connected with ISP and there is no reference anywhere through Google that mentions INEG and China in the same search except for postings by Jeff Williams (which means he references himself as proof he exists)<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html</A> <BR>3.&nbsp; seems to have attracted another 2 thousand fictitious members to his fake corporation (from 127k to 129k) as stated by his signature<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00242.html</A> <BR>4.&nbsp; accused a fellow member of ICANNatLarge.org of cheating the outcome of several internet based elections and when challenged he only made more unfounded accusations and provided no proof<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0302/msg00400.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0302/msg00400.html</A> <BR>5.&nbsp; always talks about members of INEG attending various internet related meetings but nobody ever sees them or speaks with them or even finds anyone wearing an INEG name tag , and Jeff always says "they are too busy to meet with you"<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00247.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00247.html</A> <BR>6.&nbsp; claims to be one of the originators of ARPANET<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00331.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0303/msg00331.html</A><BR>7.&nbsp; claims to be an employee of the United States Government and threatened to sue another member as well as inform both U.S. and Canadian authorities of alleged illegal activities (the member was charged by Jeff of supposedly mailing the membership list without authority)<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00082.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00082.html</A><BR>8.&nbsp; claims to have over $6700 in funds for ICANNatLarge organization but does not provide proof the money exists<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00192.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00192.html</A><BR>9.&nbsp; claims to be an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (F.B.I.) of the United States Government<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00451.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00451.html</A><BR>10.&nbsp; talks about the openness and transparency of his alleged INEGroup but has never revealed even one member's name and, if pressured, will state that one can get the membership list via a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request by the United States Government law allowing access to records of Federal agencies (but he states that it is available from the FEC which is the Federal Election Commission which has nothing to do with INEGroup members)<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00466.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0304/msg00466.html</A> <BR>11.&nbsp; claims to have over 11K members in INEGroup from mainland China<BR>see: <A href="http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0305/msg00068.html">http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0305/msg00068.html</A><BR>&nbsp;<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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