Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #1589
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST          Monday, February 10 2003          Volume 01 : Number 1589

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 20:09:21 -0500
From: Esther Dyson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Esther Dyson..... - a modest clarification 

To quote the Register more fully:

"We want public input into ICANN", she said. "We've got a mechanism where 
it can have a seat on the task forces, liaisons to working groups, be part 
of the policy making process - I see that in many ways as more important 
than having a seat on the board."

That part in fact is accurate (though I couldn't swear to it word for 
word).  I do in fact believe this.  The ability to have input *when policy 
is made* - rather than later when it is voted on by the board - is very 
important, I believe.  The board's votes are usually fairly general; all 
the details and nuances happen in the implementation, either in the 
policies that are put *to* the board, or the ones that are created 
afterwards at its direction.  (PS- This is not new, from me, anyway.)  I 
think it's fair to say that much of what distresses people about ICANN is 
not the board votes, but how they are implemented.

Having seats on the board is *also* a good thing, to be sure, and one that 
matters, but a few seats on the board would probably make less difference 
than some active involvement in committee work.

Note: I did not say "in all ways."  nor did I say "meaningless input" (as 
in the ICANNwatch headline). The kind of input I mean is input that has an 
impact, because it is delivered by credible individuals making good points 
in the face-to-face conversations where policy details and compromises are 
hammered out.

What I *did* say was more focused on the importance of fixing ICANN rather 
than abandoning it, and some of the difficulties of doing so.  (plus some 
history!)

Esther

At 05:06 PM 2/8/2003, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
>Meanwhile, corrections to
>http://www.icannwatch.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/06/2324259&mode=nested
>would be welcomed -- that quote didn't sound like you...
>
>On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, Esther Dyson wrote:
>
> >
> > Two:  Don't believe everything you read. What I actually said was quite
> > different, and not that new.  Please do read Oxford's precis of the
> > conference when it is posted.  Or you can read what I wrote for the Wall
>
>--
>                 Please visit http://www.icannwatch.org
>A. Michael Froomkin   |    Professor of Law    |   [email-masked]
>U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA
>+1 (305) 284-4285  |  +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)  |  http://www.law.tm
>                         -->It's warm here.<--

Esther Dyson                    Always make new mistakes!
chairman, EDventure Holdings
writer, Release 3.0 (on Website below)
[email-masked]
1 (212) 924-8800    --   fax  1 (212) 924-0240
104 Fifth Avenue (between 15th and 16th Streets; 20th floor)
New York, NY 10011 USA
http://www.edventure.com

The conversation continues..... at
http://www.edventure.com/conversation/

PC Forum 2003 - March 23 to 25, Phoenix
Who? what? where? Data comes alive!

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 21:15:15 -0500
From: "Cade,Marilyn S - LGCRP" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] GNSO Council WHOIS TF Final report- modified version -open for public comment

Dear Jeff

Please do not use profanity in communications with the Secretariat. That is completely unprofessional and uncalled for. 

I suggest that an apology is needed from you to the Secretariat. 

As for the Task Force, which I co-chair, I'm happy to provide the following perspective, which I feel confident that my co-chair and the TF will support.

We have posted, taken comments, posted, taken comments, posted.... etc. etc. 

This is one final offering to the community for any further comments on a report which was presented to the Council in Amsterdam. There is little change, except to incorporate the Implementation Committee's input, and the comments received in the interim. 

We have made many opportunities for input available. I am not sure what you mean by "alternative proposals". You have had several weeks if not months to provide "alternate proposals". You have not provided any substantive "alternative proposals" to the postings of the TF. 

You should note that the work of the TF includes Issues Reports which will be posted in the near future for comment and then presentation and discussion in Rio. Perhaps your angst is better directed to those reports. 

We always value receiving informed, educated, thorough, considered and well documented input with its documented backup and documentation on who has been consulted and participated in the comments. The Task Force welcomes  broad, well substantiated informed comments regarding its work. 

I repeat that I believe that you owe the Secretariat an apology. IF you have issues with the TF, you can direct them to the co-chairs. 

Marilyn Cade 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Williams [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 8:34 PM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: GA
Subject: Re: [ga] GNSO Council Whois TF Final report- modified version
- -open for public comment

Dear secretariat and all former DNSO GA members,

  Dam!  This seems like and awfully short time span for submitting
comments/alternitive proposals!  :(  It would almost seem as though
there is a desire on the part of the Whois Task Force that no
comments or few would be welcome or considered????

DNSO SECRETARIAT wrote:

> [To:[email-masked]; [email-masked]]
> [To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]]
>
> The WHOIS Task Force has provided a replacement version of the Final report
> on Whois Accuracy and Bulk Access.
> http://www.dnso.org/dnso/notes/20030206.WhoisTF-accuracy-and-bulkaccess.html
> with
> There is one change based on input received from one of the contributors of
> comments regarding the name of the contributor; their request for correction
> was accepted.
> The final version remains otherwise unchanged.
>
> The report contains consensus policy recommendations as well as advice and
> comment from the Task Force.
>
> The report will be considered by the GNSO Council at its meeting on 20
> February 2003. If the GNSO Council adopts recommendations, they are likely
> to be addressed at the ICANN Public Forum on 26 March 2003 in Rio De
> Janeiro, Brazil, and to be considered by the ICANN Board for adoption on 27
> March 2003.
>
> Comments should be submitted by e-mail to <[email-masked]> no later
> than 17 February 2003.
>
> Comments will be archived at:
> http://dnso.dnso.org/dnso/dnsocomments/comments-whois/Arc03/
>
> GNSO Secretariat
>
> --
> This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html

Regards,
- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 129k members/stakeholders strong!)
================================================================
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 214-244-3801

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 21:21:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Baptista <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Esther Dyson..... - a modest clarification 

you have the art of saying a great deal and meaning nothing to a fine
form.  congrats.  keep paddling.

regards
joe

Joe Baptista - only at www.baptista.god

        Elastic Ropes http://www.elasticropes.low/ boy band

On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Esther Dyson wrote:

> To quote the Register more fully:
>
> "We want public input into ICANN", she said. "We've got a mechanism where
> it can have a seat on the task forces, liaisons to working groups, be part
> of the policy making process - I see that in many ways as more important
> than having a seat on the board."
>
> That part in fact is accurate (though I couldn't swear to it word for
> word).  I do in fact believe this.  The ability to have input *when policy
> is made* - rather than later when it is voted on by the board - is very
> important, I believe.  The board's votes are usually fairly general; all
> the details and nuances happen in the implementation, either in the
> policies that are put *to* the board, or the ones that are created
> afterwards at its direction.  (PS- This is not new, from me, anyway.)  I
> think it's fair to say that much of what distresses people about ICANN is
> not the board votes, but how they are implemented.
>
> Having seats on the board is *also* a good thing, to be sure, and one that
> matters, but a few seats on the board would probably make less difference
> than some active involvement in committee work.
>
> Note: I did not say "in all ways."  nor did I say "meaningless input" (as
> in the ICANNwatch headline). The kind of input I mean is input that has an
> impact, because it is delivered by credible individuals making good points
> in the face-to-face conversations where policy details and compromises are
> hammered out.
>
> What I *did* say was more focused on the importance of fixing ICANN rather
> than abandoning it, and some of the difficulties of doing so.  (plus some
> history!)
>
> Esther
>
>
>
> At 05:06 PM 2/8/2003, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> >Meanwhile, corrections to
> >http://www.icannwatch.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/06/2324259&mode=nested
> >would be welcomed -- that quote didn't sound like you...
> >
> >On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, Esther Dyson wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Two:  Don't believe everything you read. What I actually said was quite
> > > different, and not that new.  Please do read Oxford's precis of the
> > > conference when it is posted.  Or you can read what I wrote for the Wall
> >
> >--
> >                 Please visit http://www.icannwatch.org
> >A. Michael Froomkin   |    Professor of Law    |   [email-masked]
> >U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA
> >+1 (305) 284-4285  |  +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)  |  http://www.law.tm
> >                         -->It's warm here.<--
>
>
>
> Esther Dyson                    Always make new mistakes!
> chairman, EDventure Holdings
> writer, Release 3.0 (on Website below)
> [email-masked]
> 1 (212) 924-8800    --   fax  1 (212) 924-0240
> 104 Fifth Avenue (between 15th and 16th Streets; 20th floor)
> New York, NY 10011 USA
> http://www.edventure.com
>
> The conversation continues..... at
> http://www.edventure.com/conversation/
>
> PC Forum 2003 - March 23 to 25, Phoenix
> Who? what? where? Data comes alive!
>
>
>
> --
> This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 21:38:52 -0500
From: Gene Marsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Esther Dyson..... - a modest clarification 

Esther,

I believe there is more angst about how ICANN reached its "consensus" 
during policy creation.  The input stream is largely seen as pouring water 
into sand, while the board accepts policies for vote based on apparent fiat 
or influenced views.

Gene...

- -----Original Message-----
From:	Esther Dyson [SMTP:[email-masked]]
Sent:	Sunday, February 09, 2003 8:09 PM
To:	Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law
Cc:	[email-masked]
Subject:	Re: [ga] Esther Dyson..... - a modest clarification

To quote the Register more fully:

"We want public input into ICANN", she said. "We've got a mechanism where
it can have a seat on the task forces, liaisons to working groups, be part
of the policy making process - I see that in many ways as more important
than having a seat on the board."

That part in fact is accurate (though I couldn't swear to it word for
word).  I do in fact believe this.  The ability to have input *when policy
is made* - rather than later when it is voted on by the board - is very
important, I believe.  The board's votes are usually fairly general; all
the details and nuances happen in the implementation, either in the
policies that are put *to* the board, or the ones that are created
afterwards at its direction.  (PS- This is not new, from me, anyway.)  I
think it's fair to say that much of what distresses people about ICANN is
not the board votes, but how they are implemented.

Having seats on the board is *also* a good thing, to be sure, and one that
matters, but a few seats on the board would probably make less difference
than some active involvement in committee work.

Note: I did not say "in all ways."  nor did I say "meaningless input" (as
in the ICANNwatch headline). The kind of input I mean is input that has an
impact, because it is delivered by credible individuals making good points
in the face-to-face conversations where policy details and compromises are
hammered out.

What I *did* say was more focused on the importance of fixing ICANN rather
than abandoning it, and some of the difficulties of doing so.  (plus some
history!)

Esther

At 05:06 PM 2/8/2003, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
>Meanwhile, corrections to
>http://www.icannwatch.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/06/2324259&mode=nested
>would be welcomed -- that quote didn't sound like you...
>
>On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, Esther Dyson wrote:
>
> >
> > Two:  Don't believe everything you read. What I actually said was quite
> > different, and not that new.  Please do read Oxford's precis of the
> > conference when it is posted.  Or you can read what I wrote for the 
Wall
>
>--
>                 Please visit http://www.icannwatch.org
>A. Michael Froomkin   |    Professor of Law    |   [email-masked]
>U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA
>+1 (305) 284-4285  |  +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)  |  http://www.law.tm
>                         -->It's warm here.<--

Esther Dyson                    Always make new mistakes!
chairman, EDventure Holdings
writer, Release 3.0 (on Website below)
[email-masked]
1 (212) 924-8800    --   fax  1 (212) 924-0240
104 Fifth Avenue (between 15th and 16th Streets; 20th floor)
New York, NY 10011 USA
http://www.edventure.com

The conversation continues..... at
http://www.edventure.com/conversation/

PC Forum 2003 - March 23 to 25, Phoenix
Who? what? where? Data comes alive!

- --
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Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 22:24:55 -0800
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] GNSO Council WHOIS TF Final report- modified version -open for public comment

Marilyn and all former DNSO GA members,

  Dam, is not a profane word.  Hence I do not see the reason for
you complaint or disgruntlement.  Please explain why you have decided
to be dishonest in your remarks below.  I do apologize if the
secretariat was in any way offended by anything I stated in my remarks.
But I do not retract them nor as I said/stated is "Dam" a profane word.
I also have yet to hear directly from the secretariat as to being offended
in any way...  Hence I question that such is the case.  Rather I would suggest
that my comment/remark hit a cord of honest concern that may be
embarrassing to whom my remarks were directed.

Cade,Marilyn S - LGCRP wrote:

> Dear Jeff
>
> Please do not use profanity in communications with the Secretariat. That is completely unprofessional and uncalled for.
>
> I suggest that an apology is needed from you to the Secretariat.
>
> As for the Task Force, which I co-chair, I'm happy to provide the following perspective, which I feel confident that my co-chair and the TF will support.
>
> We have posted, taken comments, posted, taken comments, posted.... etc. etc.
>
> This is one final offering to the community for any further comments on a report which was presented to the Council in Amsterdam. There is little change, except to incorporate the Implementation Committee's input, and the comments received in the interim.
>
> We have made many opportunities for input available. I am not sure what you mean by "alternative proposals". You have had several weeks if not months to provide "alternate proposals". You have not provided any substantive "alternative proposals" to the postings of the TF.
>
> You should note that the work of the TF includes Issues Reports which will be posted in the near future for comment and then presentation and discussion in Rio. Perhaps your angst is better directed to those reports.
>
> We always value receiving informed, educated, thorough, considered and well documented input with its documented backup and documentation on who has been consulted and participated in the comments. The Task Force welcomes  broad, well substantiated informed comments regarding its work.
>
> I repeat that I believe that you owe the Secretariat an apology. IF you have issues with the TF, you can direct them to the co-chairs.
>
> Marilyn Cade
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Williams [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 8:34 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: GA
> Subject: Re: [ga] GNSO Council Whois TF Final report- modified version
> -open for public comment
>
> Dear secretariat and all former DNSO GA members,
>
>   Dam!  This seems like and awfully short time span for submitting
> comments/alternitive proposals!  :(  It would almost seem as though
> there is a desire on the part of the Whois Task Force that no
> comments or few would be welcome or considered????
>
> DNSO SECRETARIAT wrote:
>
> > [To:[email-masked]; [email-masked]]
> > [To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]]
> >
> > The WHOIS Task Force has provided a replacement version of the Final report
> > on Whois Accuracy and Bulk Access.
> > http://www.dnso.org/dnso/notes/20030206.WhoisTF-accuracy-and-bulkaccess.html
> > with
> > There is one change based on input received from one of the contributors of
> > comments regarding the name of the contributor; their request for correction
> > was accepted.
> > The final version remains otherwise unchanged.
> >
> > The report contains consensus policy recommendations as well as advice and
> > comment from the Task Force.
> >
> > The report will be considered by the GNSO Council at its meeting on 20
> > February 2003. If the GNSO Council adopts recommendations, they are likely
> > to be addressed at the ICANN Public Forum on 26 March 2003 in Rio De
> > Janeiro, Brazil, and to be considered by the ICANN Board for adoption on 27
> > March 2003.
> >
> > Comments should be submitted by e-mail to <[email-masked]> no later
> > than 17 February 2003.
> >
> > Comments will be archived at:
> > http://dnso.dnso.org/dnso/dnsocomments/comments-whois/Arc03/
> >
> > GNSO Secretariat
> >
> > --
> > This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> > Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> > ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> > Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
>
> Regards,
> --
> Jeffrey A. Williams
> Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 129k members/stakeholders strong!)
> ================================================================
> CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
> Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
> E-Mail [email-masked]
> Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 214-244-3801
>
> --
> This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html

Regards,
- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 129k members/stakeholders strong!)
================================================================
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 214-244-3801

- --
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Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:00:41 -0500
From: "L. Gallegos" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] GNSO Council WHOIS TF Final report- modified version -open for public comment

On 9 Feb 2003 at 21:15, Cade,Marilyn S - LGCRP wrote:

> Dear Jeff
> 
> Please do not use profanity in communications with the Secretariat. That is
> completely unprofessional and uncalled for. 

Would you care to point out the profanity in the post?  I did see an 
explative, but no profanity.  I don't see where it should requrie an 
apology, sorry.  We're not children here.  

BTW, I also noticed that the purported profanity was misspelled. :)  Its 
published spelling denotes a barrier to prevent water from spilling out of 
a specific area.  Certain animals build such barriers.

Leah

> 
> I suggest that an apology is needed from you to the Secretariat. 
> 
> As for the Task Force, which I co-chair, I'm happy to provide the following
> perspective, which I feel confident that my co-chair and the TF will
> support.
> 
> We have posted, taken comments, posted, taken comments, posted.... etc.
> etc. 
> 
> This is one final offering to the community for any further comments on a
> report which was presented to the Council in Amsterdam. There is little
> change, except to incorporate the Implementation Committee's input, and the
> comments received in the interim. 
> 
> We have made many opportunities for input available. I am not sure what you
> mean by "alternative proposals". You have had several weeks if not months
> to provide "alternate proposals". You have not provided any substantive
> "alternative proposals" to the postings of the TF. 
> 
> You should note that the work of the TF includes Issues Reports which will
> be posted in the near future for comment and then presentation and
> discussion in Rio. Perhaps your angst is better directed to those reports. 
> 
> We always value receiving informed, educated, thorough, considered and well
> documented input with its documented backup and documentation on who has
> been consulted and participated in the comments. The Task Force welcomes 
> broad, well substantiated informed comments regarding its work. 
> 
> I repeat that I believe that you owe the Secretariat an apology. IF you
> have issues with the TF, you can direct them to the co-chairs. 
> 
> Marilyn Cade 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Williams [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 8:34 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: GA
> Subject: Re: [ga] GNSO Council Whois TF Final report- modified version
> -open for public comment
> 
> 
> Dear secretariat and all former DNSO GA members,
> 
>   Dam!  This seems like and awfully short time span for submitting
> comments/alternitive proposals!  :(  It would almost seem as though
> there is a desire on the part of the Whois Task Force that no
> comments or few would be welcome or considered????
> 
> DNSO SECRETARIAT wrote:
> 
> > [To:[email-masked]; [email-masked]]
> > [To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]]
> >
> > The WHOIS Task Force has provided a replacement version of the Final
> > report on Whois Accuracy and Bulk Access.
> > http://www.dnso.org/dnso/notes/20030206.WhoisTF-accuracy-and-bulkaccess.h
> > tml with There is one change based on input received from one of the
> > contributors of comments regarding the name of the contributor; their
> > request for correction was accepted. The final version remains otherwise
> > unchanged.
> >
> > The report contains consensus policy recommendations as well as advice
> > and comment from the Task Force.
> >
> > The report will be considered by the GNSO Council at its meeting on 20
> > February 2003. If the GNSO Council adopts recommendations, they are
> > likely to be addressed at the ICANN Public Forum on 26 March 2003 in Rio
> > De Janeiro, Brazil, and to be considered by the ICANN Board for adoption
> > on 27 March 2003.
> >
> > Comments should be submitted by e-mail to <[email-masked]> no
> > later than 17 February 2003.
> >
> > Comments will be archived at:
> > http://dnso.dnso.org/dnso/dnsocomments/comments-whois/Arc03/
> >
> > GNSO Secretariat
> >
> > --
> > This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> > Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> > ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> > Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
> 
> Regards,
> --
> Jeffrey A. Williams
> Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 129k members/stakeholders strong!)
> ================================================================ CEO/DIR.
> Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security Information Network
> Eng. Group. INEG. INC. E-Mail [email-masked] Contact Number:
> 214-244-4827 or 214-244-3801
> 
> 
> --
> This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
> 
> --
> This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
> 
> 

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 06:21:43 -0000
From: "Richard Henderson" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] GNSO Council WHOIS TF Final report- modified version -open for public comment

Sorry Marilyn,

Did I miss a profanity there?

yrs astonished,

Richard H

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Cade,Marilyn S - LGCRP <[email-masked]>
To: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>

> Dear Jeff
>
> Please do not use profanity in communications with the Secretariat. That
is completely unprofessional and uncalled for.
> Marilyn Cade
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Williams [mailto:[email-masked]]
>
> Dear secretariat and all former DNSO GA members,
>
>   Dam!  This seems like and awfully short time span for submitting
> comments/alternitive proposals!  :(  It would almost seem as though
> there is a desire on the part of the Whois Task Force that no
> comments or few would be welcome or considered????
>
> Regards,
> --
> Jeffrey A. Williams

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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:17:08 +0100
From: Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] The list - atlarge vote of trust/distrust: result

On Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:25:54 -0600, you wrote:

>Who ran the vote? Was it audited by anyone?

Answers are: Joop Teernstra, and no.
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 08:01:10 -0500
From: Esther Dyson <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Esther Dyson..... - a modest clarification 

yes... but input in person carries a lot more weight than input through 
postings.  I believe having a physical presence will make a 
difference.  Now the challenge is funding to get the people there!  I.e. 
the ICANNwatch phrase "meaningless input" is precisely orthogonal (and also 
contrary) to what I meant:  "influential input," delivered in person.

Esther

At 09:38 PM 2/9/2003, Gene Marsh wrote:
>Esther,
>
>I believe there is more angst about how ICANN reached its "consensus"
>during policy creation.  The input stream is largely seen as pouring water
>into sand, while the board accepts policies for vote based on apparent fiat
>or influenced views.
>
>Gene...
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:   Esther Dyson [SMTP:[email-masked]]
>Sent:   Sunday, February 09, 2003 8:09 PM
>To:     Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law
>Cc:     [email-masked]
>Subject:        Re: [ga] Esther Dyson..... - a modest clarification
>
>To quote the Register more fully:
>
>"We want public input into ICANN", she said. "We've got a mechanism where
>it can have a seat on the task forces, liaisons to working groups, be part
>of the policy making process - I see that in many ways as more important
>than having a seat on the board."
>
>That part in fact is accurate (though I couldn't swear to it word for
>word).  I do in fact believe this.  The ability to have input *when policy
>is made* - rather than later when it is voted on by the board - is very
>important, I believe.  The board's votes are usually fairly general; all
>the details and nuances happen in the implementation, either in the
>policies that are put *to* the board, or the ones that are created
>afterwards at its direction.  (PS- This is not new, from me, anyway.)  I
>think it's fair to say that much of what distresses people about ICANN is
>not the board votes, but how they are implemented.
>
>Having seats on the board is *also* a good thing, to be sure, and one that
>matters, but a few seats on the board would probably make less difference
>than some active involvement in committee work.
>
>Note: I did not say "in all ways."  nor did I say "meaningless input" (as
>in the ICANNwatch headline). The kind of input I mean is input that has an
>impact, because it is delivered by credible individuals making good points
>in the face-to-face conversations where policy details and compromises are
>hammered out.
>
>What I *did* say was more focused on the importance of fixing ICANN rather
>than abandoning it, and some of the difficulties of doing so.  (plus some
>history!)
>
>Esther
>
>
>
>At 05:06 PM 2/8/2003, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> >Meanwhile, corrections to
> >http://www.icannwatch.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/06/2324259&mode=nested
> >would be welcomed -- that quote didn't sound like you...
> >
> >On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, Esther Dyson wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Two:  Don't believe everything you read. What I actually said was quite
> > > different, and not that new.  Please do read Oxford's precis of the
> > > conference when it is posted.  Or you can read what I wrote for the
>Wall
> >
> >--
> >                 Please visit http://www.icannwatch.org
> >A. Michael Froomkin   |    Professor of Law    |   [email-masked]
> >U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA
> >+1 (305) 284-4285  |  +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)  |  http://www.law.tm
> >                         -->It's warm here.<--
>
>
>
>Esther Dyson                    Always make new mistakes!
>chairman, EDventure Holdings
>writer, Release 3.0 (on Website below)
>[email-masked]
>1 (212) 924-8800    --   fax  1 (212) 924-0240
>104 Fifth Avenue (between 15th and 16th Streets; 20th floor)
>New York, NY 10011 USA
>http://www.edventure.com
>
>The conversation continues..... at
>http://www.edventure.com/conversation/
>
>PC Forum 2003 - March 23 to 25, Phoenix
>Who? what? where? Data comes alive!
>
>
>
>--
>This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
>Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
>("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
>Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html

Esther Dyson                    Always make new mistakes!
chairman, EDventure Holdings
writer, Release 3.0 (on Website below)
[email-masked]
1 (212) 924-8800    --   fax  1 (212) 924-0240
104 Fifth Avenue (between 15th and 16th Streets; 20th floor)
New York, NY 10011 USA
http://www.edventure.com

The conversation continues..... at
http://www.edventure.com/conversation/

PC Forum 2003 - March 23 to 25, Phoenix
Who? what? where? Data comes alive!

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 08:30:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Esther Dyson..... - a modest clarification 

I agree that the people who turn up have a big edge over internet
participants.  I think the proper answer to that is to make everyone a
virtual participant to eliminate the insider advantage.  

As for the 'committee membership is valuable' argument, I've posted my
response to this -- which I consider 'orthogonal' to the facts as
experienced in ICANN to date -- at
http://www.icannwatch.org/comments.pl?sid=1142&cid=11132

or you can read the whole thread at
http://www.icannwatch.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/06/2324259&mode=nested

On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, Esther Dyson wrote:

> yes... but input in person carries a lot more weight than input through 
> postings.  I believe having a physical presence will make a 
> difference.  Now the challenge is funding to get the people there!  I.e. 
> the ICANNwatch phrase "meaningless input" is precisely orthogonal (and also 
> contrary) to what I meant:  "influential input," delivered in person.
> 
> Esther
> 
> At 09:38 PM 2/9/2003, Gene Marsh wrote:
> >Esther,
> >
> >I believe there is more angst about how ICANN reached its "consensus"
> >during policy creation.  The input stream is largely seen as pouring water
> >into sand, while the board accepts policies for vote based on apparent fiat
> >or influenced views.
> >
> >Gene...
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:   Esther Dyson [SMTP:[email-masked]]
> >Sent:   Sunday, February 09, 2003 8:09 PM
> >To:     Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law
> >Cc:     [email-masked]
> >Subject:        Re: [ga] Esther Dyson..... - a modest clarification
> >
> >To quote the Register more fully:
> >
> >"We want public input into ICANN", she said. "We've got a mechanism where
> >it can have a seat on the task forces, liaisons to working groups, be part
> >of the policy making process - I see that in many ways as more important
> >than having a seat on the board."
> >
> >That part in fact is accurate (though I couldn't swear to it word for
> >word).  I do in fact believe this.  The ability to have input *when policy
> >is made* - rather than later when it is voted on by the board - is very
> >important, I believe.  The board's votes are usually fairly general; all
> >the details and nuances happen in the implementation, either in the
> >policies that are put *to* the board, or the ones that are created
> >afterwards at its direction.  (PS- This is not new, from me, anyway.)  I
> >think it's fair to say that much of what distresses people about ICANN is
> >not the board votes, but how they are implemented.
> >
> >Having seats on the board is *also* a good thing, to be sure, and one that
> >matters, but a few seats on the board would probably make less difference
> >than some active involvement in committee work.
> >
> >Note: I did not say "in all ways."  nor did I say "meaningless input" (as
> >in the ICANNwatch headline). The kind of input I mean is input that has an
> >impact, because it is delivered by credible individuals making good points
> >in the face-to-face conversations where policy details and compromises are
> >hammered out.
> >
> >What I *did* say was more focused on the importance of fixing ICANN rather
> >than abandoning it, and some of the difficulties of doing so.  (plus some
> >history!)
> >
> >Esther
> >
> >
> >
> >At 05:06 PM 2/8/2003, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> > >Meanwhile, corrections to
> > >http://www.icannwatch.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/06/2324259&mode=nested
> > >would be welcomed -- that quote didn't sound like you...
> > >
> > >On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, Esther Dyson wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Two:  Don't believe everything you read. What I actually said was quite
> > > > different, and not that new.  Please do read Oxford's precis of the
> > > > conference when it is posted.  Or you can read what I wrote for the
> >Wall
> > >
> > >--
> > >                 Please visit http://www.icannwatch.org
> > >A. Michael Froomkin   |    Professor of Law    |   [email-masked]
> > >U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA
> > >+1 (305) 284-4285  |  +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)  |  http://www.law.tm
> > >                         -->It's warm here.<--
> >
> >
> >
> >Esther Dyson                    Always make new mistakes!
> >chairman, EDventure Holdings
> >writer, Release 3.0 (on Website below)
> >[email-masked]
> >1 (212) 924-8800    --   fax  1 (212) 924-0240
> >104 Fifth Avenue (between 15th and 16th Streets; 20th floor)
> >New York, NY 10011 USA
> >http://www.edventure.com
> >
> >The conversation continues..... at
> >http://www.edventure.com/conversation/
> >
> >PC Forum 2003 - March 23 to 25, Phoenix
> >Who? what? where? Data comes alive!
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> >Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> >("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> >Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
> 
> 
> 
> Esther Dyson                    Always make new mistakes!
> chairman, EDventure Holdings
> writer, Release 3.0 (on Website below)
> [email-masked]
> 1 (212) 924-8800    --   fax  1 (212) 924-0240
> 104 Fifth Avenue (between 15th and 16th Streets; 20th floor)
> New York, NY 10011 USA
> http://www.edventure.com
> 
> The conversation continues..... at
> http://www.edventure.com/conversation/
> 
> PC Forum 2003 - March 23 to 25, Phoenix
> Who? what? where? Data comes alive!
> 
> 
> 
> 

- -- 
		Please visit http://www.icannwatch.org
A. Michael Froomkin   |    Professor of Law    |   [email-masked]
U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA
+1 (305) 284-4285  |  +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)  |  http://www.law.tm
                        -->It's warm here.<--

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End of GA-DIGEST V1 #1589
*************************