Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #1385
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST          Thursday, August 22 2002          Volume 01 : Number 1385

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:46:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick Wesson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Registrar Code of Conduct

Danny,

I'm not answering for mike but registrars have been working on a "code of
conduct" see http://www.icann-registrars.org/html%20docs/CodeofConduct3.htm

- -rick

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 [email-masked] wrote:

> Dear Mike,
>
> As President of the Registrars Constituency, I am sure that you can
> appreciate the need to internalize the spirit of Reform.  I write to you
> because as a representative of the domain name industry you must be keenly
> aware of the fact that registrars still do not have a "Code of Conduct" and
> that such a measure would be well in keeping with the reform initiative
> underway.  For the sake of the integrity of the industry, may I prevail upon
> you to commit yourself to the establishment of such a code?  We all would
> benefit from this type of industry self-regulation, and your leadership in
> this area would be welcomed by many in the registrant community.
>
> Best wishes,
> Danny
>
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:44:57 +0000
From: "Roberto Gaetano" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Re: [ga-abuse] [Monitor & Chair] Reminder and Final Warnings: Sims, Dierker, Field, Fleming

Kristy McKee wrote:

>
>1)  Why not make the ga-abuse list public if you are going to selectively 
>forward postings from it?

I beg your pardon?
Would it be too much to ask you to get your facts straight before posting? 
If my reply was sent to GA-abuse, and had the [ga-abuse] on the header, it 
was only because *your* message was sent to both, and my reply-all, 
therefore, as well.

>
>2)  Please show three examples of Kent Crispin engaging in polite dialogue 
>on this list.  He posted recently, maybe you'll find those to your liking.

As above, please get your facts straight before hitting the Reply key.
These are the last 3 postings from Kent on the GA list.
http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg02778.html
http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg02964.html
http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg02973.html

>
>I think our abuse archive in combination with the monitored list archive 
>proves he, like other members of ICANN receive special posting and 
>communication privileges which is unfair.

We had this discussion before, sorry for repeating.
In the case of Kent, he was suspended and I, as chair, judged that his 
apologies warranted lifting the sanctions, an attitude that I have had also 
towards other, non-ICANN posters.
In the case of Joe Sims, this was his first offense, and it has been common 
practice to give a warning and not a suspension in these cases.

>
>3)  In reference to Mr. Fleming's over posting:  
>http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/mail58.html.
>
>That's three on the 16th and five on the 17th according to the dnso.org 
>time zone.  True Jim was in his own; but was it really so awful that it 
>should be included with a warning to someone whose post was one long 
>slander-fest?  And why did Mr. Sims not receive a specific warning?  Rather 
>his shocking message was lumped in as offensive as someone who posts more 
>than five messages per day.  What kind of message are you intending to 
>send, the one received?

Whether you like it or not, the rule is to use the person's own time zone, 
for the simple reason that the person might not always be aware of DNSO's 
time zone, while he/she is supposed to know his/her own.
Incidentally, if I remember correctly, Jim Fleming has been warned before 
for off-topic posting.
Anyway, if your objection is that people should have individual warnings 
rather than being lumped together, I personally don't see the difference, 
and I assume that Alexander can take your recommandation into account.

Last but not least, I would like to bring to your attention that my point 
about the Jim Fleming case was only that you accused Alexander of having 
miscounted, while who was miscounting was you.

Again, please, PLEASE, get your facts straight before posting.

Regards
Roberto
(rest of the message trimmed for bandwidth - was 
http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg03523.html)

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:02:51 -0400
From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Re: [csif-l 706] ICANN preliminary report tips ISOC to run .org

Chris Chiu wrote:

>A preliminary staff report by the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names
>and Numbers recommends that the Internet Society be chosen to run the .org
>top-level domain. ICANN is expected to reach a formal decision on this
>subject by late September 2002.
>
>See
>http://www.internetdemocracyproject.org/#highlights
>
>Sincerely,
>Christopher Chiu
>Global Internet Liberty Campaign Organizer
>American Civil Liberties Union
>
If ISOC is going to be running a Registry, does this not invalidate 
their eligibility for inclusion in User representation/recommendation 
bodies (i.e. ALOC/ALAC)?  I asked this on this very same GA List months 
ago and there was not a single response... 
http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg02153.html

Perhaps someone will comment this time round?

Sincerely,

Sotiris Sotiropoulos

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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:13:07 -0500
From: [email-masked] (Kristy McKee)
Subject: Re: [ga] Re: [ga-abuse] [Monitor & Chair] Reminder and Final Warnings: Sims, Dierker, Field, Fleming

Roberto, you lie,

YOU copied a portion of a post sent to the ga-abuse list only and added it 
to a message sent to the ga and sent them to all sorts of people.

I will appreciate you withholding the bullshit slander boy.

~k

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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:43:04 +0200
From: Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Where are all the reports?

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:44:11 -0500, you wrote:

>What is the difference between this At Large and the one where hundreds of 
>thousands of people attempted to signed up to vote for Karl Auerbach?
>
>Will those of us who voted for representation be permitted in the new At 
>Large?  I noticed no-one in our office or the offices we support have 
>received any information about elections or progress within ICANN's At Large.
>
>Are these separate or the same thing with all the members removed?

In fact the Regional At Large Organizations, while allowing into themselves
all those organizations which want to participate in the process, should
allow individual registration. Of course, while in the original At Large
people would vote for nine Board seats, here each Regional membership elects
two seats in the ALAC, which in turn will elect only one (possibly non
voting) Board member: so the degree of power the At Large mechanism actually
handles is much, much lower. But still this scheme should allow the Regional
orgs, for example, to set up online elections if they desire to do so - and
I really think they should do it.

A point we wanted to make, however, is that neither we nor ICANN should
enter so deeply into the internal processes of such At Large Organizations.
ICANN should pose some requirements in terms of openness and sustainability,
for example; but how these Organizations work and choose their
representatives should be independently determined by themselves.
- -- 
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- --------> http://bertola.eu.org/ - Archivio FAQ e molto altro... <--------
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:28:48 -0500
From: Don Brown <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Censoring

(many cc's trimmed)

There are not the same thing.

A person who yells fire in a theater is not protected by the first
amendment.

It's called taking personal responsibility for following the rules.
You didn't (and apparently are still resistive) and were appropriately
reminded by the list monitor.

Let's move on.

Tuesday, August 20, 2002, 10:03:10 PM, [email-masked] <[email-masked]> wrote:
ehtc> Roberto, AS, TR and other similar minded censor types,

ehtc> The cutting off of the at-large vote is a censorship of the voice of the
ehtc> people.
ehtc> The cutting off of the language used by a particular group is a censorship of
ehtc> the voice of the people.

ehtc> See how that is the same thing, a voice and a vote are the same when it comes
ehtc> down to it.
ehtc> What censorship on this list does is abetting the failure to hear the voices of
ehtc> the people.
ehtc> When done in general it is wrong, when done discriminatorily it is down right
ehtc> evil and must be fought at every turn.  You cannot get away from the fact that
ehtc> censorship is the same as book burning and every time we have seen that in
ehtc> history it has lead us down a road to massive human destruction.

ehtc> The gory details of the abuse of woman in previous regimes and some current is
ehtc> offensive and my language to describe it would turn your stomach, but the point
ehtc> is the message must be heard and cutting it off because it offends your
ehtc> sensibilities is wrong.  If Joe Sims would not have posted his message we would
ehtc> not know just how deranged and desperate ICANN leadership is getting. Although
ehtc> I found it offensive I learned a great deal from it.
ehtc> This is not a past time it is central to stakeholder and user representation in
ehtc> ICANN.
ehtc> Eric

ehtc> Kristy McKee wrote:

>> Roberto,
>>
>> 1)  Why not make the ga-abuse list public if you are going to selectively
>> forward postings from it?
>>
>> 2)  Please show three examples of Kent Crispin engaging in polite dialogue
>> on this list.  He posted recently, maybe you'll find those to your liking.
>>
>> I think our abuse archive in combination with the monitored list archive
>> proves he, like other members of ICANN receive special posting and
>> communication privileges which is unfair.
>>
>> 3)  In reference to Mr. Fleming's over
>> posting:  http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/mail58.html.
>>
>> That's three on the 16th and five on the 17th according to the dnso.org
>> time zone.  True Jim was in his own; but was it really so awful that it
>> should be included with a warning to someone whose post was one long
>> slander-fest?  And why did Mr. Sims not receive a specific warning?  Rather
>> his shocking message was lumped in as offensive as someone who posts more
>> than five messages per day.  What kind of message are you intending to
>> send, the one received?
>>
>> ~k
>>
>> At 04:54 PM 8/20/2002 +0000, Roberto Gaetano wrote:
>> >Kristy McKee wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>This was obviously sent in error.
>> >>
>> >>Jim Fleming has not posted more than five messages per day to the GA's
>> >>censored list.
>> >>
>> >>I apologize to Mr. Fleming for Mr. Alexander's oversight.
>> >
>> >To my count, we have the following between 13:55:32 and 21:00:41 (UTC-5)
>> >of Friday 2002-08-16:
>> >
>> >http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg03436.html
>> >http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg03438.html
>> >http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg03440.html
>> >http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg03446.html
>> >http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg03447.html
>> >http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg03449.html
>> >http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg03450.html
>> >
>> >Incidentally, about the other complaint of Kristy:
>> >>Alexander,
>> >>
>> >>You are completely out of control.
>> >>
>> >>If you are going to threaten to remove Mr. Baptistas rights; then you
>> >>better follow through with Joe Sims, Kent Crispin, etc.
>> >
>> >I did not see a post from Kent in ages, so this time he should be
>> >considered innocent.
>> >Maybe he has thought of posting an abusive message, but he did not ;>)
>> >
>> >As for Mr. Sims, no matter how shocking his posting has been (at least to
>> >me it was), if it was the only one for which there has been a complaint to
>> >the List Monitor it warranted a warning, which is exactly what Alexander
>> >has done.
>> >
>> >This said, I would not mind seeing apologies from Joe Sims and further
>> >contribution of his on the list.
>> >
>> >Now, can we all engage ourselves to keep more decorum, before this whole
>> >matter gets out of hand?
>> >(and possibly avoid shooting the list monitor every time he does
>> >something, in particular when he is acting in conformance with the rules,
>> >like in these cases)
>> >
>> >Thanks
>> >Roberto
>> >
>> >
>> >_________________________________________________________________
>> >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>>
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:32:45 -0500
From: [email-masked] (Kristy McKee)
Subject: Re: [ga] Where are all the reports?

Vittorio, Thank you for your prompt response,

Are writing this:  Yes, Kristy, we have flushed the entire At Large 
Membership after spending (hundreds?) (thousands?) (millions?) developing it.

??

I don't much care why, I think that's pretty obvious, especially now that 
our rep, Karl Auerbach, has won our court case.

I just want to understand whether or not I need to look into a new org or 
not now; however, if none of the orgs are voting for good representation, I 
am sure it is not worth the time to motivate folks again now that their 
efforts have been trashed by ICANN.

What you think?

~k

At 03:43 PM 8/21/2002 +0200, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:44:11 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >What is the difference between this At Large and the one where hundreds of
> >thousands of people attempted to signed up to vote for Karl Auerbach?
> >
> >Will those of us who voted for representation be permitted in the new At
> >Large?  I noticed no-one in our office or the offices we support have
> >received any information about elections or progress within ICANN's At 
> Large.
> >
> >Are these separate or the same thing with all the members removed?
>
>In fact the Regional At Large Organizations, while allowing into themselves
>all those organizations which want to participate in the process, should
>allow individual registration. Of course, while in the original At Large
>people would vote for nine Board seats, here each Regional membership elects
>two seats in the ALAC, which in turn will elect only one (possibly non
>voting) Board member: so the degree of power the At Large mechanism actually
>handles is much, much lower. But still this scheme should allow the Regional
>orgs, for example, to set up online elections if they desire to do so - and
>I really think they should do it.
>
>A point we wanted to make, however, is that neither we nor ICANN should
>enter so deeply into the internal processes of such At Large Organizations.
>ICANN should pose some requirements in terms of openness and sustainability,
>for example; but how these Organizations work and choose their
>representatives should be independently determined by themselves.
>--
>vb.               [Vittorio Bertola - v.bertola [a] bertola.eu.org]<------
>--------> http://bertola.eu.org/ - Archivio FAQ e molto altro... <--------
>--
>This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:00:18 -0700
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [ga] Censoring

Don Brown wrote:

> (many cc's trimmed)
>
> There are not the same thing.
>
> A person who yells fire in a theater is not protected by the first
> amendment.

Here is where you are wrong and you make my point perfectly.
What you wanted to say was "crowded theater" - then you had to follow up with and it
causes a problem of some sort - clearly if he is watching a war movie and wants the hero
to shoot at the bad guy then it is ok to yell fire.

> It's called taking personal responsibility for following the rules.

Yes absolutely and a government contracted body may not abridge free speech in the US.
It is the higher rule that I am talking about, you are somehow confusing that with ESL
people determining what is right in English, especially when they probably learned a
version of Queens English as opposed to American English.  But even that makes no sense
if you attend a rowdy Paliment session. Will call the threat of being censored prior
restraint and it is the worst form of censorship because it even limits thought to  what
might be acceptable.

>
> You didn't (and apparently are still resistive) and were appropriately
> reminded by the list monitor.

> Let's move on.

The Internet and Domain Names of which this body falls under DNSO is all about open
communication and assuring it's reliability, accessibility and stability.  To suggest
that ones ability to freely communicate is not the key component of this fora is hiding
your head in the sand.

Read some court decisions, even read some WIPO decisions on the Fu--SoandSo domain names
and you will find an International Standard, then criticize me for my speech.  Go to the
main ICANN discuss lists and read,
and then read what our staff lawyers have written about restricting the speech.  Look up
a guy named Eisenberg and read his articles on monitoring a site and the liability it
creates.

I will fight to the death for your right to say what you said but you are wrong and have
not attempted to become informed on a subject prior to offering an opinion.

Sincerely,
Eric

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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:28:26 +0000
From: "Roberto Gaetano" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Re: [ga-abuse] [Monitor & Chair] Reminder and Final Warnings: Sims, Dierker, Field, Fleming

Kristy McKee wrote:

>
>Roberto, you lie,
>
>YOU copied a portion of a post sent to the ga-abuse list only and added it 
>to a message sent to the ga and sent them to all sorts of people.
>
>I will appreciate you withholding the bullshit slander boy.
>

I see you did not take my advice of getting your facts straight before 
hitting the <Send> key.

The first part was the normal <Reply all> to message 
http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg03516.html, the second part 
cut&pasted from http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc10/msg03518.html.
Please feel free to check both messages in the archives.

If you want to file a complaint against people forwarding private messages 
to public lists, please feel free to do so, but make sure that this time you 
accuse the right person.

A last comment: if you say too many times wrong things, if you accuse the 
wrong persons, if you don't check the facts before writing, if you don't 
think before acting, you will inevitably reduce your chances to be trusted 
when you say something correct. If this happens, don't blame the others.
(incidentally, even if you were right, you could have used a more 
appropriate tone)

Best regards
Roberto

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:00:41 -0500
From: [email-masked] (Kristy McKee)
Subject: Re: [ga] Re: [ga-abuse] [Monitor & Chair] Reminder and Final Warnings: Sims, Dierker, Field, Fleming

So Roberto, if Joe jumped off a bridge you would follow his lead.  Somehow 
I had not taken you for the type.  You usually seem to be doing the right 
thing - standing the moral ground.  On this point, I think you're a little 
off.  Don't do things just because other people do them, keep yourself 
within those great moral boundaries I think of you within.

!!

~K

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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:59:20 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [ga] Registrar Code of Conduct

Rick,

Thanks for the feedback on prior registrar efforts to establish a Code of 
Conduct.  Now that the .AU folks have released their comprehensive Code of 
Practice http://auda.org.au/policy/code-committee-2002/final-code.pdf  
perhaps your fellow registrars will have occasion to review this document and 
will take your own efforts another step forward in the right direction.
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:00:38 -0700
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Re: [ga-abuse] [Monitor & Chair] Reminder and Final Warnings: Sims, Dierker, Field, Fleming

Kristy and all assembly members,

  I too have often noticed that Roberto has at times a disconnect
with honesty.   I do wish that he would self correct that periodic
problem or excuse himself...

Kristy McKee wrote:

> Roberto, you lie,
>
> YOU copied a portion of a post sent to the ga-abuse list only and added it
> to a message sent to the ga and sent them to all sorts of people.
>
> I will appreciate you withholding the bullshit slander boy.
>
> ~k
>
> --
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Regards,
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:38:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kirikos <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] WLS fate to be decided on Friday by ICANN

Hello,

According to the agenda for August 23rd's meeting at:

http://www.icann.org/calendar.htm

"VeriSign request for approval of wait-listing service."

Sincerely,

George Kirikos
http://www.kirikos.com/

__________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:07:11 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] RAA 3.7.1

Dear Stuart,

For some time now, many members in the Community have recognized the need for 
the domain name industry (and registrars in particular) to adopt a Code of 
Conduct.  The Registrar Accreditation Agreement includes the following 
language on this subject:

3.7.1 In the event ICANN adopts a specification or policy, supported by a 
consensus of ICANN-Accredited registrars, establishing or approving a Code of 
Conduct for ICANN-Accredited registrars, Registrar shall abide by that Code.

Can you perhaps comment upon whether ICANN in the spirit of Reform is 
considering adopting a specification or policy establishing such a Code of 
Conduct?  According to my reading of the above language, the onus appears to 
be on ICANN, as the coordinator, to develop such a Code (which would then be 
subject to ratification by a consensus decision of the accredited 
registrars).  Is my understanding of this matter correct, and do you 
contemplate action along these lines?  

Best regards,
Danny Younger
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:13:10 -0400
From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] WLS fate to be decided on Friday by ICANN

George Kirikos wrote:

>Hello,
>
>According to the agenda for August 23rd's meeting at:
>
>http://www.icann.org/calendar.htm
>
>"VeriSign request for approval of wait-listing service."
>
I'm willing to wager that ICANN will sit on their hands and allow 
Verisign to do as they please.  Anybody care to take me up on it?

Sincerely,

Sotiris Sotiropoulos

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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:17:33 +0100
From: "Jon Lawrence" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Registrar Code of Conduct

Note that the Belgians have also recently released a code of conduct for
.be.

See: http://www.udrplaw.net/ExclusiveNews12.htm

regards
jon

>-- Original Message --
>From: [email-masked]
>Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:59:20 EDT
>Subject: Re: [ga] Registrar Code of Conduct
>To: [email-masked]
>CC: [email-masked], [email-masked]
>
>
>Rick,
>
>Thanks for the feedback on prior registrar efforts to establish a Code
of
>
>Conduct.  Now that the .AU folks have released their comprehensive Code
of
>
>Practice http://auda.org.au/policy/code-committee-2002/final-code.pdf 

>perhaps your fellow registrars will have occasion to review this document
>and 
>will take your own efforts another step forward in the right direction.
>--
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>Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
>("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
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>

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End of GA-DIGEST V1 #1385
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