Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #1319
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST            Tuesday, July 9 2002            Volume 01 : Number 1319

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:09:22 -0500
From: Andy Gardner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

At 11:59 PM -0400 7/8/02, Joe Sims wrote:
>That old ICANN is gone -- and is being replaced with an organization that
>still adheres to the core values of openness and transparency, of broad
>public input and participation, and of making policy by consensus whenever
>possible

Ha ha ha.

You crack me up, Joe.

If you honestly believe what you just wrote - you are smoking some weird shit.

Core values???

The OLD ICANN never adhered to them.

YOU ARE SO FULL OF SHIT, YOU SMELL FUNNY.

- -- 
Andrew P. Gardner
barcelona.com stolen, stmoritz.com stays. What's uniform about the UDRP?
We could ask ICANN to send WIPO a clue, but do they have any to spare?
Get active: http://www.tldlobby.com
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Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 00:52:27 -0400
From: Dale Farmer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

Andy Gardner wrote:

> At 11:59 PM -0400 7/8/02, Joe Sims wrote:
> >That old ICANN is gone -- and is being replaced with an organization that
> >still adheres to the core values of openness and transparency, of broad
> >public input and participation, and of making policy by consensus whenever
> >possible
>
> Ha ha ha.
>
> You crack me up, Joe.
>
> If you honestly believe what you just wrote - you are smoking some weird shit.
>
> Core values???
>
> The OLD ICANN never adhered to them.
>
> YOU ARE SO FULL OF SHIT, YOU SMELL FUNNY.

Please Mr. Gardner.
   Mr. Sims making ad hominem attacks rather than addressing the substance
of Karl's issues with ICANN management does not justify descending to
his level.   It would be nice to see a substantive response, but Mr. Sims is
merely acting as a mouthpiece, and is not ultimately responsible for what
he is being paid to say in this forum.  He merely dresses up the material that
his client hands to him to present here.   Such a waste of electrons
and money.    Of course if Mr. Sims is truly speaking for himself here,
then he is out of line in his response.

   --Dale

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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 01:19:09 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

Joe,

With all due respect, the GA has a rule:  "The messages must observe a 
minimum of decorum, including:
  - Not indulging in personal attacks, insults or slander"  
http://www.dnso.org/dnso/notes/2000.GA-ga-rules.html

Your latest post is quite clearly a personal attack against an ICANN Board 
director wherein insults have been conveyed.  Unless an apology to this 
Assembly is forthcoming, I will be requesting that the list monitors initiate 
proceedings to suspend your posting rights.  

Best wishes,
Danny Younger

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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:25:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick Wesson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

Joe,

unless you are speaking on behalf, and at the request, of the other
members of the ICANN board, I would prefer to hear their own point of
view on the matter.

I can't remember the last time I saw another member of the board post to
the ga list, if you could prod them into participating it would be most
welcome.

- -rick

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Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:54:06 -0700
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

The address for complaints is [email-masked], Danny.

For what it is worth, I agree with you fully here.

Monday, July 08, 2002, 10:19:09 PM, [email-masked] wrote:

> Joe,

> With all due respect, the GA has a rule:  "The messages must observe a 
> minimum of decorum, including:
>   - Not indulging in personal attacks, insults or slander"  
> http://www.dnso.org/dnso/notes/2000.GA-ga-rules.html

> Your latest post is quite clearly a personal attack against an ICANN Board 
> director wherein insults have been conveyed.  Unless an apology to this 
> Assembly is forthcoming, I will be requesting that the list monitors initiate 
> proceedings to suspend your posting rights.  

> Best wishes,
> Danny Younger

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- -- 
Best regards,
William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
- --
Save Internet Radio!  
CARP will kill Webcasting!
http://www.saveinternetradio.org/

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Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 01:12:31 -0700
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Joes spin to: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

Joe and all assembly members, stakeholders and other interested parties,

Joe Sims wrote:

>  Karl's latest posting makes you wonder whether the self-imposed
> responsibility for saving the Internet from the barbarians has finally
> gotten to him (and even to his lawyers, if they in fact gave him the
> strange advice he says they did).

  Interesting spin here form you Joe.  Karls previous remarks to which
you refer in no way leaves me wondering about any barbarians or
Karls interaction to such...  Me thinks you protest to much here
my good fellow...

>
>
> What is most revealing, however, in this latest message is his obvious
> contempt for his fellow Board members, who according to him are
> hapless and helpless, in the steely grip of a domineering staff and
> unable (some, according to Karl, because English is not their native
> language) to get the real truth of what is going on.

  Karl was quite clear in stating that ALL of the BOD members understand

and speak english quite well.  So I am personally unclear as to your
particular brand of spin here and it's rather obtuse meaning...  ????

> Karl, by comparison, is a self-described big-time player, testifying
> before Congress and meeting with important people in Washington.  His
> comparison in the last hearing to Senators and himself as being
> similar because both were elected was another manifestation of this
> self-delusion, which is both amazing and a little sad.

  I did not again gather from Karls previous comments to which you refer
as
being self described "Big Time Player" as you put it here.  Rather it
seems
that you are just spinning a false characterization upon comments of
Karls
in a suspiciously negative sounding manner.

>
>
> In fact, if Karl ever actually spent any time with his fellow
> directors from outside the United States, he would discover that most
> of them speak considerably better English than he (or I) do, as if
> that had anything to do with their critical faculties.  Indeed, the
> personal accomplishments of Alejandro Pisanty, or Nii Quaynor, or Ivan
> Campos, or for that matter Vint Cerf and the rest of the ICANN
> directors, compare quite favorably to Karl's career record of
> accomplishment, I would guess.  And if he ever bothered to actually
> debate the merits of issues with them -- which he does not, because,
> of course, he knows he already has the delivered wisdom -- he would
> know how hard they have struggled with these complicated issues.  If
> he ever bothered to listen, he would have heard his fellow elected
> directors explain why, for example, they thought that online elections
> were not a good way to select ICANN Board members at this time -- but
> since Karl knows better, he does not listen or dismisses these views
> as the result of "fear of the US."   But Karl tells us later that
> ICANN is headed for a "collision" with the US because it is failing to
> comply with its obligations (by which he means elections).  Which is
> it:  fear of the US is buffaloing people like Ivan Campos and Nii
> Quaynor into opposing elections even though they really think they are
> a good idea, or the US is going to force ICANN to, in Karl's words,
> "comport with their obligations?"  Like many owners of delivered
> wisdom, Karl is not troubled by internal inconsistency.

  I think Karl was drawing from the flip-flop of positions that certain
ICANN
Directors and Sr. Staff members have publicly stated...

>
>
> I invite readers to review the GAC Statement on Evolution and Reform
> issued at Bucharest.  The US, unlike Karl, was present for an intense
> 2 1/2 day meeting that produced a detailed statement basically
> endorsing the Blueprint for Reform adopted by the Board.  There were
> some dissents or disassociations, like the ITU, but none from the US.
> If we are headed for a collision, where are the signs?

  The signs are from the stakeholders Joe.

> Ah, perhaps from his meetings with important people in Washington, but
> if so, who are they and why are they not speaking out?

  We are speaking out.  We the stakeholders shall continue to do so
Joe...

>  Could it be we have a transparency issue with Karl?  Horrors! Or
> perhaps he mostly has a hearing problem -- zealots frequently hear
> what they want to hear, and only that.

  Indeed zealots such as yourself Joe many times only hear what they
wish to hear.
I don't personally get that impression however from Karl...

>
>
> The real issue is not public input into ICANN; there is no dispute
> from anyone that there must be effective mechanisms for the general
> public, including individual users, to make their views known and to
> participate if they choose to in the policy development process.
> Karl's position, and that of some others, is that there is only one
> possible acceptable way for that to happen -- by electing directors.
> The views of many others are different -- that there are numerous ways
> it can happen, and elections (at least today) are not the best of
> those options.

  They (Elections of Directors) are the only way by which adequate
stakeholder
voice can be effected.  SUch may not be what the existing BOD and staff
would wish.  But this is of course understandable...

> This may be an issue that reasonable people can differ on, but to
> Karl, those who disagree could only do so because they are evil, or
> inept, or somehow constrained in their ability to think because
> English is not their native language.
>
> This is either utter nonsense or the ramblings of a zealot.  In either
> case, it deserves the weight that it is getting.  Karl asked to be a
> member of the ICANN Board; nobody dragooned him.  Once given that
> responsibility, he has chosen to ignore his fiduciary obligations to
> ICANN and to this fellow Board members, and to use that platform to
> feed his ego and advance a largely incoherent personal agenda.

  Karl was not given a position on the ICANN BOD, he was elected to it
Joe.
As such, and being elected by the than ICANN AtLarge, he rightly
represented
those that elected him.  Hence your characterization and spin here Joe
seems grossly inconsistent with the facts...

>  Being an ICANN director has given him prominence and attention, and
> apparently that is what he wanted, since he has not even tried to do
> anything iwith his fellow Board members that would possibly advance
> the cause he says he espouses.  He has never missed a Senate or House
> hearing, but he now excuses his lack of attendence at one of the most
> important ICANN Board meetings ever on the fact that it was
> inconvenient for him (as compared, one supposes, to those other Board
> members from around the world that were able to adjust their schedules
> to enable their attendence).  Other excuses for other absences were
> that he was up late and fell asleep, and that he couldn't get the
> phone to work.  In America, every person apparently has the right to
> be irresponsible, but for heaven's sake, the rest of us don't have to
> pretend that it is an attractive character trait.

  Again  your spin here Joe does not jive with what Karl has himself
previously
stated.  I choose to believe Karl before yourself, Joe.

>
>
> Karl is part of the old ICANN -- an organization that was as much a
> magnet for every person with grandiose ideas about global democracy as
> it was a serious working body.  That old ICANN is gone -- and is being
> replaced with an organization that still adheres to the core values of
> openness and transparency, of broad public input and participation,
> and of making policy by consensus whenever possible, but does so with
> the knowledge that it still has to all work.

  ICANN and consensus have been and remain strange bedfellows to say
the least Joe.  In order to have a known consensus on anything such must

be measured.  That can only be done by a vote of the stakeholders as
required in the White Paper and the MoU...

> For people like Karl, the new ICANN may not have quite the magnetic
> attraction of the old, but that is not a bad thing.  It should help
> get the decisions that must be made done in a timely and effective
> way.  And that will be a good thing.

  There is not "New ICANN" Joe.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe Sims
> Jones Day Reavis & Pogue
> 51 Louisiana Avenue NW
> Washington, D.C. 20001
> Direct Phone:  1.202.879.3863
> Direct Fax:  1.202.626.1747
> Mobile Phone:  1.703.629.3963
>
>
>
>
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Regards,

- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 124k members/stakeholders strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-244-3801 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 23:57:13 -0700
From: Gary Osbourne <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

At 10:25 PM 08/07/02 -0700, Rick Wesson wrote:

>unless you are speaking on behalf, and at the request, of the other
>members of the ICANN board, I would prefer to hear their own point of
>view on the matter.
>
>I can't remember the last time I saw another member of the board post to
>the ga list, if you could prod them into participating it would be most
>welcome.

So now we have a registrar constituent wbo thinks
Joe Sims is one of the BoD members. No wonder ICANN
is so fscked up. There are tears streaming down my
face and for one time they're due to laughter. What
a bunch of terminally incompetent morons we have
running this new internet thing. -g

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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:07:17 -0700
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

When he said "other members of the ICANN Board" he was referring to
the fact that Karl participates, Gary.

Do you understand now?

Monday, July 08, 2002, 11:57:13 PM, Gary Osbourne wrote:

> At 10:25 PM 08/07/02 -0700, Rick Wesson wrote:

>>unless you are speaking on behalf, and at the request, of the other
>>members of the ICANN board, I would prefer to hear their own point of
>>view on the matter.
>>
>>I can't remember the last time I saw another member of the board post to
>>the ga list, if you could prod them into participating it would be most
>>welcome.

> So now we have a registrar constituent wbo thinks
> Joe Sims is one of the BoD members. No wonder ICANN
> is so fscked up. There are tears streaming down my
> face and for one time they're due to laughter. What
> a bunch of terminally incompetent morons we have
> running this new internet thing. -g

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- -- 
Best regards,
William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
- --
Save Internet Radio!  
CARP will kill Webcasting!
http://www.saveinternetradio.org/

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 00:43:38 -0700
From: Gary Osbourne <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

At 12:07 AM 09/07/02 -0700, William X Walsh wrote:

>When he said "other members of the ICANN Board" he was referring to
>the fact that Karl participates, Gary.
>
>Do you understand now?

OK, let's quote this puppy in total and deconstruct:

- -Joe,
- -unless you are speaking on behalf, and at the request,
- -of the other members of the ICANN board,

What 'other' members? Is Joe Sims a member? No. That
would be a considerable step down from his current
status. WTF would he do that?

- -I would prefer to hear their own point of view on
- -the matter. I can't remember the last time I saw
- -another member of the board post to the ga list,
- -if you could prod them into participating it would
- -be most welcome.

Another member. Who are the other members of this
class? In context one can only assume they mean other
members of the ICANN BoD. Is Joe Sims a member of the
ICANN BoD? Not the last time I looked. Are you, an
argumentative wanabee, a member of the ICANN Bod?
Nope, though I would grant you that they'd improve
with your odious presence.

And that's all I have to quote, They've run your
response through their filter and they still haven't
run the original. I'm sure you look better with
the ICANN stamp of approval on your ass. -g

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 03:32:07 -0400
From: "Joe Sims" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

<FONT face=3D"Default Sans Serif, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" si=
ze=3D2><DIV>check out the webcast of the Accra Board meeting for an example=
, although I was thinking of the intra-Board discussions in my reference.<B=
R></DIV><BR><BR><BR>Joe&nbsp;Sims<BR>Jones&nbsp;Day&nbsp;Reavis&nbsp;&amp;&=
nbsp;Pogue<BR>51&nbsp;Louisiana&nbsp;Avenue&nbsp;NW<BR>Washington,&nbsp;D.C=
.&nbsp;20001<BR>Direct&nbsp;Phone:&nbsp;&nbsp;1.202.879.3863<BR>Direct&nbsp=
;Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp;1.202.626.1747<BR>Mobile&nbsp;Phone:&nbsp;&nbsp;1.703.629.=
3963<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>The preceding e-mail message (including any =
attachments) contains information that may be confidential, be protected by=
 the attorney-client or other applicable privileges, or constitute non-publ=
ic information. It is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipi=
ent(s). If you are not an intended recipient of this message, please notify=
 the sender by replying to this message and then delete it from your system=
. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this message by unin=
tended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
  <DIV><BR></DIV><BR><DIV><BR></DIV><FONT color=3D#990099>-----William X Wa=
lsh &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote: -----<BR><BR></FONT>To: "Joe Sims" &=
lt;[email-masked]&gt;<BR>From: William X Walsh &lt;[email-masked]&=
gt;<BR>Date: 07/09/2002 01:12PM<BR>cc: [email-masked]<BR>Subject: Re: [ga] Kar=
l's latest<BR><BR><BR>Monday, July 08, 2002, 8:59:09 PM, Joe Sims wrote:<BR=
><BR>&gt; know how hard they have struggled with these complicated issues.&=
nbsp; If<BR>&gt; he ever bothered to listen, he would have  heard his fello=
w elected<BR>&gt; directors explain why, for example, they thought that onl=
ine<BR>&gt; elections were not a good way to select ICANN Board members at =
this<BR>&gt; time<BR><BR><BR>I'd sure like to see this, Joe, if in fact you=
 are being genuine.<BR>What are the solid reasons why they feel elections a=
re not a good way<BR>to select Board members?<BR><BR>I have my own opinion =
about the real reason, but I'll take you up on<BR>your statement here that =
they are willing to share their reasons.<BR><BR>Please post the reference f=
or us here, so we can all be enlightened by<BR>their so called wisdom.<BR><=
BR>-- <BR>Best regards,<BR>William X Walsh &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<BR>-=
- -<BR>Save Internet Radio!  <BR>CARP will kill Webcasting!<BR><a href=3D"htt=
p://www.saveinternetradio.org/" target=3Dblank>http://www.saveinternetradio=
.org/</a><BR><BR><BR></FONT>=
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 03:37:24 -0400
From: "Joe Sims" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

<FONT face=3D"Default Sans Serif, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" si=
ze=3D2><DIV>as surprising as it may seem, they make up their own minds abou=
t such things.&nbsp; I will repeat what I have said before:&nbsp; unless no=
ted to the contrary, I speak for myself in participation on these lists, an=
d you are of course free to agree or disagree as you see fit.<BR></DIV><BR>=
<BR><BR>Joe&nbsp;Sims<BR>Jones&nbsp;Day&nbsp;Reavis&nbsp;&amp;&nbsp;Pogue<B=
R>51&nbsp;Louisiana&nbsp;Avenue&nbsp;NW<BR>Washington,&nbsp;D.C.&nbsp;20001=
<BR>Direct&nbsp;Phone:&nbsp;&nbsp;1.202.879.3863<BR>Direct&nbsp;Fax:&nbsp;&=
nbsp;1.202.626.1747<BR>Mobile&nbsp;Phone:&nbsp;&nbsp;1.703.629.3963<BR><BR>=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>The preceding e-mail message (including any attachments)=
 contains information that may be confidential, be protected by the attorne=
y-client or other applicable privileges, or constitute non-public informati=
on. It is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s). If y=
ou are not an intended recipient of this message, please notify the sender =
by replying to this message and then delete it from your system. Use, disse=
mination, distribution, or reproduction of this message by unintended recip=
ients is not authorized and may be unlawful.<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D  <DIV><BR><=
/DIV><BR><DIV><BR></DIV><FONT color=3D#990099>-----Rick Wesson &lt;wessorh@=
ar.com&gt; wrote: -----<BR><BR></FONT>To: Joe Sims &lt;[email-masked]&g=
t;<BR>From: Rick Wesson &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<BR>Date: 07/09/2002 02:25PM<=
BR>cc: &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest<BR><BR><BR><B=
R>Joe,<BR><BR>unless you are speaking on behalf, and at the request, of the=
 other<BR>members of the ICANN board, I would prefer to hear their own poin=
t of<BR>view on the matter.<BR><BR>I can't remember the last time I saw ano=
ther member of the board post to<BR>the ga list, if you could prod them int=
o participating it would be most<BR>welcome.<BR><BR>-rick<BR><BR><BR></FONT=
>=
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 03:46:11 -0400
From: "L. Gallegos" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

posting in html is rude, Joe.  could you please use text only?  Many list 
subsribers use text only mail clients and have to manually remove the 
html garbage in order to read the post.

leah

On 9 Jul 2002, at 3:37, Joe Sims wrote:

as surprising as it may seem, they make up their own minds about such 
things. I will repeat what I have said before: unless noted to the contrary, I 
speak for myself in participation on these lists, and you are of course free to 
agree or disagree as you see fit.

JoeSims
JonesDayReavis&Pogue
51LouisianaAvenueNW
Washington,D.C.20001
DirectPhone:1.202.879.3863
DirectFax:1.202.626.1747
MobilePhone:1.703.629.3963

==============================
The preceding e-mail message (including any attachments) contains 
information that may be confidential, be protected by the attorney-client or 
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to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s). If you are not an intended 
recipient of this message, please notify the sender by replying to this message 
and then delete it from your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or 
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may be unlawful.
============================== 

- -----Rick Wesson <[email-masked]> wrote: -----

To: Joe Sims <[email-masked]>
From: Rick Wesson <[email-masked]>
Date: 07/09/2002 02:25PM
cc: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

Joe,

unless you are speaking on behalf, and at the request, of the other
members of the ICANN board, I would prefer to hear their own point of
view on the matter.

I can't remember the last time I saw another member of the board post to
the ga list, if you could prod them into participating it would be most
welcome.

- -rick

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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 01:03:18 -0700
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

Tuesday, July 09, 2002, 12:32:07 AM, Joe Sims wrote:

> check out the webcast of the Accra Board meeting for an example, although I was thinking of the intra-Board discussions in my reference.

Ah, so secret references, and nothing on paper, nothing written.

Sorry, Joe, but if they have not taken the time to put their positions
to a document of some kind, even an email, then they are not taking
seriously the concept of public input and comment.

Your statement falls flat on its face.

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CARP will kill Webcasting!
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 01:05:27 -0700
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

I'm not going to argue with you, Gary, some of us understood Rick just
fine.  That you didn't speaks more about you than anything.

End of debate.

> OK, let's quote this puppy in total and deconstruct:

> -Joe,
> -unless you are speaking on behalf, and at the request,
> -of the other members of the ICANN board,

> What 'other' members? Is Joe Sims a member? No. That
> would be a considerable step down from his current
> status. WTF would he do that?

Other members, referring to "other members besides Karl" who Joe was
making it appear he was speaking for in his attack on Karl.

Again, we understood Gary just fine, you are simply trying to find
fault instead of participating.  Thanks for that Gary.

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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:32:42 +0200
From: Andy Mueller-Maguhn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

Gentleman,
(and women)

allow me a short comment on this thread. 

Indeed (and also what Dany pointed out) it would make me more happy
if Joe Sims as legal consultant for ICANN would see himself and behave
a little more neutral. 

This whole discussions raises the "wag-the-dog" question in an obvious
sad way: is it the ICANN board making decissions based on consultation
with the community and then asking staff + legal consultant to work it out
or is it the legal consultant fighting with the community and even a member
of the board and then consulting the ICANN board what to do?!

I do not assume that Mr. Sims is "smoking some weird shit" because as a 
matter of fact, human beeings inhaling marihuana are normaly much more
peaceful as what at least my impression from this posting is. If this would
have to do with the abuse of drugs, I would guess some other substance 
associated with creating paranoia to be (ab)used here [1].

But I do not mind about private such matters  here and I also do not mind
if Joe Sims is allowed to practise law in california, but I do  mind if he has
and keeps the necessary neutrality to be in the position he is for ICANN and
the board.

This is what I dislike about the situation.

So, back to the issues.

Some of you might have wondered, why the resolution 02.75 - 02.80 [2]
was adopted unanimously. The reason was mentioned here already, but the
dimension of it is a little more bizzare.

As elected director from the european users, and if you want, call it
"at-large" elected, I of course worry about *how* the user representation
and participation of users will take place in the ICANN of the future. And
of course I want to have the attention of the board, especially the members
of the ERC to *really* think about mechanism, so that the policy-making
at the end *is* a balance of interests among all segments of the Internet 
community. 

Before adopting the resolution, I was able to change some phrases in there
with the help of other directors, main point was next to the setting of
the nomcom (originally this was ICANN community, changed to internet
community) the point:

*   devise and incorporate specific measures to ensure, to the extent feasible, 
   geographic and cultural diversity in all parts of ICANN structure

All parts of ICANN structure means all parts, including staff, legal advise,
technical structure (including root servers).

Obviously, this does not solve the problem of public represenation and
participation within ICANN and the board. And it still raises the question,
how and with what amount of will this will be practised.

So there is a long list of open questions, *how* this all will be realised,
because the precise and direct affecting decisions (by-law changes etc) 
will be made in the next weeks/months and there is good reasons to keep
the energy for paying attention to these next steps.

To come to the point: By all respects to the work of some ICANN critics,
especially to the US based, I simply cannot follow the idea, that bringing
the US government into the game (through DOC, through legislation,
through talking to US Senate members who might be more willing to listen
than some ICANN board members and staff people are) can improve the
accountability, transparency and/or user represenation/participation
situation at ICANN.

I simply do not know a single example in the past, where by involvement
of the united states government in global issues, anything improved.
Especially not for the reasons mentioned. Especially not as a european
citizen.

Also, I do not think, that anybody can use "the government as a tool"
because governments have their own interests next to the sometimes
existing tiny little bit of reputation some of them might have, through 
claiming to work on behalf of the citizens (which is of course different
for the different governments of the different countries and their
different understandings and procedures to do so). 

The meeting in Bucharest already took place under specific and more
or less extreme statements as well from governmental representatives
as from people involed with the ITU. If you look at the current international
situation outside ICANN, it is hard to guess in what kind  of issues
a strong governmental involvemend would bring us in what we can
see now as the "ICANN policy area" and what might it might end up to be.

Exactly this is at least my reason for voting in favour of the 
blueprint as at least a less-worse solution then strong governmental
involvement would be.

I hope that this improves your understanding a little bit of what is
going on here. Sorry for not beeing able to follow all threads here.

Andy Mueller-Maguhn

[1] see http://www.rawilson.com/main.shtml

[2] http://www.icann.org/minutes/prelim-report-28jun02.htm

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Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:32:36 +0200
From: "J-F C. (Jefsey)  Morfin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Karl's latest

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Mr. Sims,
I would only be shocked by this "ad hominem" attack and would ask for 
apologies too on behalf of this GA, should we all not know this is part of 
the only defense ICANN found: to abuse Mr. Auerbach and Mr. Gilmore (and 
who else?) into an acid response to claim the whole case is ad hominem 
against you, Mr. Cerf and Mr ... Pisanty (?).

I thank you for proposing us to reread the GAC document. I suppose this is 
a way to convey that Mr. Auerbach and you do not play in the same field and 
a way to flatter the GAC Members. I think the GAC Members are not the dumb 
fools (to take an expression matching your style) you seem to think they 
are: this document shows it or may one of us has actually the English 
reading problem you claim. They have not misunderstood the tricks you 
introduced against them in the Blueprint. Some of them are already aware of 
the text of your post (it was fair game to broadcast it) and have remarked 
that after all you are an employee of Mr. Auerbach: for people accustomed 
to diplomatic language you have here demonstrated a capacity for 
discourtesy and uncivilization which will worry them as being your possible 
next target. To be clear, I think this "à la drunken cow-boy" post has made 
more for the future position of the GAC IRT ICANN than all what you may 
have discussed in Bucharest. I do thank you for that.

This being said, you created the ICANN you now despise as an "old ICANN" 
you say Mr. Auerbach supports for a long. a) this would make Mr. Auerbach 
one of your earliest followers, a feeling I had not: it seems you treat you 
fans in a strange way. b) this means that you call your first attempt a 
failure, a wise opinion many share with you. Since you also are among the 
leading fathers of the "New" ICANN, I am sure we all are interested to know 
why you think this second attempt of yours will be the success we wish. 
Even if I am the feeling - from other circles than the US ones you navigate 
with Mr. Auerbach -  that we are now on a converging tack towards a third 
attempt, may be even before you leave?
.
Regards. jfc

On 05:59 09/07/02, Joe Sims said:
>Karl's latest posting makes you wonder whether the self-imposed 
>responsibility for saving the Internet from the barbarians has finally 
>gotten to him (and even to his lawyers, if they in fact gave him the 
>strange advice he says they did).
>
>What is most revealing, however, in this latest message is his obvious 
>contempt for his fellow Board members, who according to him are hapless 
>and helpless, in the steely grip of a domineering staff and unable (some, 
>according to Karl, because English is not their native language) to get 
>the real truth of what is going on.  Karl, by comparison, is a 
>self-described big-time player, testifying before Congress and meeting 
>with important people in Washington.  His comparison in the last hearing 
>to Senators and himself as being similar because both were elected was 
>another manifestation of this self-delusion, which is both amazing and a 
>little sad.
>
>In fact, if Karl ever actually spent any time with his fellow directors 
>from outside the United States, he would discover that most of them speak 
>considerably better English than he (or I) do, as if that had anything to 
>do with their critical faculties.  Indeed, the personal accomplishments of 
>Alejandro Pisanty, or Nii Quaynor, or Ivan Campos, or for that matter Vint 
>Cerf and the rest of the ICANN directors, compare quite favorably to 
>Karl's career record of accomplishment, I would guess.  And if he ever 
>bothered to actually debate the merits of issues with them -- which he 
>does not, because, of course, he knows he already has the delivered wisdom 
>-- he would know how hard they have struggled with these complicated 
>issues.  If he ever bothered to listen, he would have heard his fellow 
>elected directors explain why, for example, they thought that online 
>elections were not a good way to select ICANN Board members at this time 
>-- but since Karl knows better, he does not listen or dismisses t[ga] 
>Karl's latest.ems hese views as the result of "fear of the US."   But Karl 
>tells us later that ICANN is headed for a "collision" with the US because 
>it is failing to comply with its obligations (by which he means 
>elections).  Which is it:  fear of the US is buffaloing people like Ivan 
>Campos and Nii Quaynor into opposing elections even though they really 
>think they are a good idea, or the US is going to force ICANN to, in 
>Karl's words, "comport with their obligations?"  Like many owners of 
>delivered wisdom, Karl is not troubled by internal inconsistency.
>
>I invite readers to review the GAC Statement on Evolution and Reform 
>issued at Bucharest.  The US, unlike Karl, was present for an intense 2 
>1/2 day meeting that produced a detailed statement basically endorsing the 
>Blueprint for Reform adopted by the Board.  There were some dissents or 
>disassociations, like the ITU, but none from the US.  If we are headed for 
>a collision, where are the signs?  Ah, perhaps from his meetings with 
>important people in Washington, but if so, who are they and why are they 
>not speaking out?  Could it be we have a transparency issue with 
>Karl?  Horrors! Or perhaps he mostly has a hearing problem -- zealots 
>frequently hear what they want to hear, and only that.
>
>The real issue is not public input into ICANN; there is no dispute from 
>anyone that there must be effective mechanisms for the general public, 
>including individual users, to make their views known and to participate 
>if they choose to in the policy development process.  Karl's position, and 
>that of some others, is that there is only one possible acceptable way for 
>that to happen -- by electing directors.  The views of many others are 
>different -- that there are numerous ways it can happen, and elections (at 
>least today) are not the best of those options.  This may be an issue that 
>reasonable people can differ on, but to Karl, those who disagree could 
>only do so because they are evil, or inept, or so[ga] Karl's latest.ems 
>mehow constrained in their ability to think because English is not their 
>native language.
>
>This is either utter nonsense or the ramblings of a zealot.  In either 
>case, it deserves the weight that it is getting.  Karl asked to be a 
>member of the ICANN Board; nobody dragooned him.  Once given that 
>responsibility, he has chosen to ignore his fiduciary obligations to ICANN 
>and to this fellow Board members, and to use that platform to feed his ego 
>and advance a largely incoherent personal agenda.  Being an ICANN director 
>has given him prominence and attention, and apparently that is what he 
>wanted, since he has not even tried to do anything iwith his fellow Board 
>members that would possibly advance the cause he says he espouses.  He has 
>never missed a Senate or House hearing, but he now excuses his lack of 
>attendence at one of the most important ICANN Board meetings ever on the 
>fact that it was inconvenient for him (as compared, one supposes, to those 
>other Board members from around the world that were able to adjust their 
>schedules to enable their attendence).  Other excuses for other absences 
>were that he was up late and fell asleep, and that he couldn't get the 
>phone to work.  In America, every person apparently has the right to be 
>irresponsible, but for heaven's sake, the rest of us don't have to pretend 
>that it is an attractive character trait.
>
>Karl is part of the old ICANN -- an organization that was as much a magnet 
>for every person with grandiose ideas about global democracy as it was a 
>serious working body.  That old ICANN is gone -- and is being replaced 
>with an organization that still adheres to the core values of openness and 
>transparency, of broad public input and participation, and of making 
>policy by consensus whenever possible, but does so with the knowledge that 
>it still has to all work.  For people like Karl, the new ICANN may not 
>have quite the magnetic attraction of the old, but that is not a bad 
>thing.  It shou[ga] Karl's latest.ems ld help get the decisions that must 
>be made done in a timely and effective way.  And that will be a good thing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Joe Sims
>Jones Day Reavis & Pogue
>51 Louisiana Avenue NW
>Washington, D.C. 20001
>Direct Phone:  1.202.879.3863
>Direct Fax:  1.202.626.1747
>Mobile Phone:  1.703.629.3963
>
>==============================
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>replying to this message and then delete it from your system. Use, 
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>recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
>==============================
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<html>
Mr. Sims,<br>
I would only be shocked by this &quot;ad hominem&quot; attack and would
ask for apologies too on behalf of this GA, should we all not know this
is part of the only defense ICANN found: to abuse Mr. Auerbach and Mr.
Gilmore (and who else?) into an acid response to claim the whole case is
ad hominem against you, Mr. Cerf and Mr ... Pisanty (?).<br><br>
I thank you for proposing us to reread the GAC document. I suppose this
is a way to convey that Mr. Auerbach and you do not play in the same
field and a way to flatter the GAC Members. I think the GAC Members are
not the dumb fools (to take an expression matching your style) you seem
to think they are: this document shows it or may one of us has actually
the English reading problem you claim. They have not misunderstood the
tricks you introduced against them in the Blueprint. Some of them are
already aware of the text of your post (it was fair game to broadcast it)
and have remarked that after all you are an employee of Mr. Auerbach: for
people accustomed to diplomatic language you have here demonstrated a
capacity for discourtesy and uncivilization which will worry them as
being your possible next target. To be clear, I think this &quot;à la
drunken cow-boy&quot; post has made more for the future position of the
GAC IRT ICANN than all what you may have discussed in Bucharest. I do
thank you for that.<br><br>
This being said, you created the ICANN you now despise as an &quot;old
ICANN&quot; you say Mr. Auerbach supports for a long. a) this would make
Mr. Auerbach one of your earliest followers, a feeling I had not: it
seems you treat you fans in a strange way. b) this means that you call
your first attempt a failure, a wise opinion many share with you. Since
you also are among the leading fathers of the &quot;New&quot; ICANN, I am
sure we all are interested to know why you think this second attempt of
yours will be the success we wish. Even if I am the feeling - from other
circles than the US ones you navigate with Mr. Auerbach -&nbsp; that we
are now on a converging tack towards a third attempt, may be even before
you leave?<br>
.<br>
Regards. jfc<br><br>
On 05:59 09/07/02, Joe Sims said:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font face="Verdana" size=2>Karl's
latest posting makes you wonder whether the self-imposed responsibility
for saving the Internet from the barbarians has finally gotten to him
(and even to his lawyers, if they in fact gave him the strange advice he
says they did).&nbsp; <br><br>
What is most revealing, however, in this latest message is his obvious
contempt for his fellow Board members, who according to him are hapless
and helpless, in the steely grip of a domineering staff and unable (some,
according to Karl, because English is not their native language) to get
the real truth of what is going on.&nbsp; Karl, by comparison, is a
self-described big-time player, testifying before Congress and meeting
with important people in Washington.&nbsp; His comparison in the last
hearing to Senators and himself as being similar because both were
elected was another manifestation of this self-delusion, which is both
amazing and a little sad.<br><br>
In fact, if Karl ever actually spent any time with his fellow directors
from outside the United States, he would discover that most of them speak
considerably better English than he (or I) do, as if that had anything to
do with their critical faculties.&nbsp; Indeed, the personal
accomplishments of Alejandro Pisanty, or Nii Quaynor, or Ivan Campos, or
for that matter Vint Cerf and the rest of the ICANN directors, compare
quite favorably to Karl's career record of accomplishment, I would
guess.&nbsp; And if he ever bothered to actually debate the merits of
issues with them -- which he does not, because, of course, he knows he
already has the delivered wisdom -- he would know how hard they have
struggled with these complicated issues.&nbsp; If he ever bothered to
listen, he would have heard his fellow elected directors explain why, for
example, they thought that online elections were not a good way to select
ICANN Board members at this time -- but since Karl knows better, he does
not listen or dismisses t[ga] Karl's latest.ems hese views as the result
of &quot;fear of the US.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; But Karl tells us later that
ICANN is headed for a &quot;collision&quot; with the US because it is
failing to comply with its obligations (by which he means
elections).&nbsp; Which is it:&nbsp; fear of the US is buffaloing people
like Ivan Campos and Nii Quaynor into opposing elections even though they
really think they are a good idea, or the US is going to force ICANN to,
in Karl's words, &quot;comport with their obligations?&quot;&nbsp; Like
many owners of delivered wisdom, Karl is not troubled by internal
inconsistency.<br><br>
I invite readers to review the GAC Statement on Evolution and Reform
issued at Bucharest.&nbsp; The US, unlike Karl, was present for an
intense 2 1/2 day meeting that produced a detailed statement basically
endorsing the Blueprint for Reform adopted by the Board.&nbsp; There were
some dissents or disassociations, like the ITU, but none from the
US.&nbsp; If we are headed for a collision, where are the signs?&nbsp;
Ah, perhaps from his meetings with important people in Washington, but if
so, who are they and why are they not speaking out?&nbsp; Could it be we
have a transparency issue with Karl?&nbsp; Horrors! Or perhaps he mostly
has a hearing problem -- zealots frequently hear what they want to hear,
and only that.<br><br>
The real issue is not public input into ICANN; there is no dispute from
anyone that there must be effective mechanisms for the general public,
including individual users, to make their views known and to participate
if they choose to in the policy development process.&nbsp; Karl's
position, and that of some others, is that there is only one possible
acceptable way for that to happen -- by electing directors.&nbsp; The
views of many others are different -- that there are numerous ways it can
happen, and elections (at least today) are not the best of those
options.&nbsp; This may be an issue that reasonable people can differ on,
but to Karl, those who disagree could only do so because they are evil,
or inept, or so[ga] Karl's latest.ems mehow constrained in their ability
to think because English is not their native language.&nbsp; <br><br>
This is either utter nonsense or the ramblings of a zealot.&nbsp; In
either case, it deserves the weight that it is getting.&nbsp; Karl asked
to be a member of the ICANN Board; nobody dragooned him.&nbsp; Once given
that responsibility, he has chosen to ignore his fiduciary obligations to
ICANN and to this fellow Board members, and to use that platform to feed
his ego and advance a largely incoherent personal agenda.&nbsp; Being an
ICANN director has given him prominence and attention, and apparently
that is what he wanted, since he has not even tried to do anything iwith
his fellow Board members that would possibly advance the cause he says he
espouses.&nbsp; He has never missed a Senate or House hearing, but he now
excuses his lack of attendence at one of the most important ICANN Board
meetings ever on the fact that it was inconvenient for him (as compared,
one supposes, to those other Board members from around the world that
were able to adjust their schedules to enable their attendence).&nbsp;
Other excuses for other absences were that he was up late and fell
asleep, and that he couldn't get the phone to work.&nbsp; In America,
every person apparently has the right to be irresponsible, but for
heaven's sake, the rest of us don't have to pretend that it is an
attractive character trait.<br><br>
Karl is part of the old ICANN -- an organization that was as much a
magnet for every person with grandiose ideas about global democracy as it
was a serious working body.&nbsp; That old ICANN is gone -- and is being
replaced with an organization that still adheres to the core values of
openness and transparency, of broad public input and participation, and
of making policy by consensus whenever possible, but does so with the
knowledge that it still has to all work.&nbsp; For people like Karl, the
new ICANN may not have quite the magnetic attraction of the old, but that
is not a bad thing.&nbsp; It shou[ga] Karl's latest.ems ld help get the
decisions that must be made done in a timely and effective way.&nbsp; And
that will be a good thing.<br><br>
&nbsp;<br><br>
&nbsp;<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
Joe Sims<br>
Jones Day Reavis &amp; Pogue<br>
51 Louisiana Avenue NW<br>
Washington, D.C. 20001<br>
Direct Phone:&nbsp; 1.202.879.3863<br>
Direct Fax:&nbsp; 1.202.626.1747<br>
Mobile Phone:&nbsp; 1.703.629.3963<br><br>
==============================<br>
The preceding e-mail message (including any attachments) contains
information that may be confidential, be protected by the attorney-client
or other applicable privileges, or constitute non-public information. It
is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s). If you
are not an intended recipient of this message, please notify the sender
by replying to this message and then delete it from your system. Use,
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unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.<br>
============================== <br><br>
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