Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #1314
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST           Saturday, July 6 2002           Volume 01 : Number 1314

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Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:17:57 -0400
From: "L. Gallegos" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] anti-wls petition

I signed it :)  Thanks for putting it up, Andrew.  I've notified other groups 
of its existence as well.  There are more out there who do not 
participate in the GA and are vehimently opposed to WLS.  Let's hope 
they respond.

Leah

On 5 Jul 2002, at 18:51, McMeikan, Andrew wrote:

> To All,
>  please be advised that I have place a petition at
> http://www.petitiononline.com/antiwls/ to protest against the WLS
> 
> I would urge you to add you name in opposition.
> 
> I will notify the names council of its existence so that it may be
> considered in their recommendations to the board.
> 
>  cya,	Andrew...
> 
> This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended
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> disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party.  If you are not an
> intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any
> attachment and all copies and inform the sender.  Thank you. -- This
> message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list. Send mail to
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> 
> 

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Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 13:43:43 -0700
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] At-Large

Jefsey and all assembly members,

J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin wrote:

> On 06:49 05/07/02, Ray Fassett said:
> >Kristy Mckee writes:
> >"Too bad ICANN does not believe every citizen deserves the right to vote."
>
> I am afraid we serve Joe Sims interests here. He is genuinely frustrated by
> the lack of some basic understandings by his fellow countrymen, but this is
> just the dressing.

  How true...

>
>
> 1. Kristy: democracy must not be confused with votes.

  Not with "Votes" not, but a basic precept in any democratic
structure is the right to vote as a voter.  The distinction here
is significant and fundamental, Jefsey...

> You have democracy by
> representation and democracy by delegation.

  No, there is not such thing as a democracy by delegation without
those delegated being determined by a vote of the stakeholders/users
in this case, or the case with ICANN...

> In Athens only 500 people
> voted.

  ICANN is not a Greek organization, but may have an impact on Greek
stakeholders.  ICANN is a California non profit corp. under us law
governed by the White Paper and the MoU.  As such, your comparison
to whom voted in Athens is of no viable or comparative consequence.

> In the USA only citizens of age can vote. Ages of vote varies among
> countries.

  Indeed right here Jefsey.  In the USA the age restriction is that you
must be 18 years or older to vote in National elections.  However
there is no age restriction to vote a persons shares in a corp. or
as a member of an non profit corp.  Hence making such an argument
again not valid to that extent.

> Number of candidates and ways of voting vary. 99,99% for the
> single candidate is not what I call democracy. In Bucharest every Director
> was allowed to vote ....

  Yes, however not every or even the majority of Directors was elected
to those director positions as required in the White Paper and the MoU.
Ergo, their votes cannot and do not represent anyone except themselves
alone...  The only two exceptions are Karl and Andy...

>
>
> 2. Ray: your reaction is a pure demonstration of what Joe says. I am sorry,
> I do respect and share most of the ideas of the US democracy which fit well
> the needs of a federated nation with a rather simple common law practice
> and a short legal history.
>
> >So, I guess we are supposed to just shut up instead of going on and on
> >with our "head-in-the-sand attitude [that] is unfortunately quite common
> >among ICANN's American critics" (Joe Sims).
>
> I will certainly not take the USA as a model for democracy and for loyal
> commercial practices because I will take no one: every country culture has
> con and pros and should work for improvement and for adaptation to the real
> world. To understand and accept that, as Joe and Esther do, is what many
> call civilization. But civilization also comes with mutual respect: when
> some are more civilized than others, many call it machiavellism

  Machiavellism, as you seem to espouse that Joe and Esther follow
here is in no way actually what the contractual obligations that the
ICANN BoD and staff has to the stakeholders/users in accordance
with the White Paper and the MoU.  Ergo yet again this is not
really and argument of any validity.

>
>
> We have to accept that the ICANN is not to manage the Internet but to
> manage us.

  No we do not have to accept this as you state it here.  Rather we
as stakeholders/users choose whom represents us to manage the
internet (DNS, Protocols, and IP addressing/numbering).

> Its true role is to protect the "stakeholders" from the market
> leading forces which are seen as competition or dangers fo the network
> stability (competition, politics, lobbies, NGOs, experts, activists,
> foreign govs, techies, consumer organizations, etc.). Statu quo is the key
> word - the DNS never changed in 18 years since we delegated it under the
> State Department, ITU and foreign Govs (monopolies of the time) approval.

  The DNS has changed dramatically Jefsey.  So it is difficult to impossible
to see you point here.

>
>
> I can only admire Joe's memo. The vote of the BoD he is so proud of is a
> master piece of influence over the last six months.

  You and Joe may admire it.  Most stakeholders/users that are now
and have been stating that the direction of ICANN is flawed to the point
of needing and a calling for a rebid of the ICANN Contracts with
DOC/NTIA.

> I would be really glad
> to know the truth about Karl's not showing up. Worked out? Luck?

  Karl already on this very forum stated his reasons for not being present
in Bucharest.  Perhaps you missed his post on that.  (See DNSO GA
Archives for further information).

>  Now what
> is (by chance or by intent?) the effect of his memo? Joe will be able to
> produce it to show that Gillmore's testimony about Vint is part of a
> personal feud of Gillmore against Joe, dating from the Postel's days.

  Vint is a member of the Worldcom Board that has been accused
and involved in massive fraud.  Ergo, at this and even some time previously,
juncture, anything Vint has said should be viewed with some very great
amount of skepticism...

> That
> it is rooted in a loony proposition of Gillmore rightfully refused by Joe.
> Joe did not quote anything real, many texts with references where quoted in
> response, but the harm was done. It might be the same in front of a Court.

  Good point here.  I don't think that Joe want's to attempt the same
gambit in a court room.  I may be wrong on that though given his
outlandish statements of the past 4-5 months...

>
>
> I am very interested also to learn that JDRP is not looking for long term
> customers. Also that a single individual with no legal case, being helped
> by one lawyer (and may be one or two assistants) in a USG support matter,
> may get a 1 million dollar bill. If JDRP cancelled the bill either JDRP is
> in the charity business and should get tax deductions, either it was
> favoritism and in some way Jon Postel, or IANA, should be taxed on the
> advantages they obtained, either it is a fantasy say which may cost a lot
> to JDRP as other clients may ask for the same treatment, or it was a pure
> investment that would not pay back and Joe's leaving is to cut on JDRP's
> losses. I am interested in knowing who Joe is going to replace the ICANN
> with? and what about Louis?
>
> I can also only admire the way the Blueprint is worded in order to close
> the mouth and ambitions of the @large and of EEC and others. The @large
> trap was triggered first. The use of Vittorio was brillant, but Vittorio is
> a smart and honnest fellow, so let watch what happens. The GAC's trap was
> the usual way (last minute document saying that this will not happen
> again). The EEC trap is a very good one. It will be triggered probably this
> summer. There are some other traps, some we see, some we do not see yet.
> Joe and some others are far better at managing human networks ties than
> Internet links :-)

  All of these traps were seen as very great possibilities in '98 and were
voluminously discussed publicly than on the old Domain-Policy
list...

>
>
> Since, I am only interested in servicing the Internet Participants we are
> on planets apart..
> jfc

Regards,

- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 124k members/stakeholders strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-244-3801 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 19:36:43 -0700
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] anti-wls petition

Andrew and all assembly members,

  Thank you for forwarding this petition to the DNSO GA.  Although
the GA has already held a poll on WLS as is decidedly against it, it
it still a good thing to put forward this petition.  I signed it...  I
encourage any and all DNSO GA members that are against WLS
do so also without delay...

McMeikan, Andrew wrote:

> To All,
>         please be advised that I have place a petition at
> http://www.petitiononline.com/antiwls/ to protest against the WLS
>
> I would urge you to add you name in opposition.
>
> I will notify the names council of its existence so that it may be
> considered in their recommendations to the board.
>
>         cya,    Andrew...
>
> This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended recipient(s) only.  It may contain proprietary material, confidential information and/or be subject to legal privilege.  It should not be copied, disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party.  If you are not an intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any attachment and all copies and inform the sender.  Thank you.
> --
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> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html

Regards,
- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 124k members/stakeholders strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-244-3801 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 13:19:17 +0200
From: Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] new elections for icannatlarge.com approaching

Dear all,

as the term for the current icannatlarge.com panel approaches, we are about
to start a new election for the next panel.

Details are still being formally worked out by the current panel, but I hope
that in a couple of days we will be able to send out a formal charter for
the elections. However, if you are interested in participating to
icannatlarge.com or, more generally speaking, in defending the role of the
public in the technical administration of the Internet, we encourage you to
immediately start to do the following:

- - if you're not an icannatlarge.com member yet, go to www.icannatlarge.com
and register; all members registering before Monday, July 15 will be allowed
to vote;

- - suggest your own nominations (or even propose yourself as a candidate) by
posting to the atlarge-discuss mailing list(*) or to the "Second Elections"
forum on the icannatlarge.com website by July 15; all nominees that accept
the nomination by July 16 will be included in the ballot.

We recommend you to subscribe to the atlarge-discuss list as most of the
campaign will take place there; also, candidate information pages will
possibly be set up on the website.

The next panel will have to take very important decisions, such as whether
and how to participate to ICANN's newly established At Large Advisory
Committee, just to name one. This is why I think that these elections
deserve all your attention. Also, please feel free to forward this message
to any relevant list or person (no spamming please).

Regards,

Vittorio Bertola
Current icannatlarge.com Chair

(*) To post, send a message to [email-masked]; to subscribe,
send an empty message to [email-masked]; archives
may be found at http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/ .
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 08:13:34 -0700
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] WLS

- --------------E8A799F88AE6EBCA721801BA
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

We are working on this new program through what I think we would call
the Alpha stage.
The idea will be a complete transparency and open ticker to show names
that are becoming available.

We hope that it would arouse interest and at the same time level the
playing field for free.
This is a ccTLD and so usage is a must but it could be adapted to other
foras.

I think criticism from this group and with an eye toward WLS would be
helpful for this concept.
VNNIC is a developing ccTLD and so they have the freedom to do what is
best.
But if you look at it as an opportunity to get away from foregone
methodology and start afresh we all would appreciate input.

Sincerely,
Eric

https://www.dotvn.com/vnnic/expired.jsp

- --------------E8A799F88AE6EBCA721801BA
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
We are working on this new program through what I think we would call the
Alpha stage.
<br>The idea will be a complete transparency and open ticker to show names
that are becoming available.
<p>We hope that it would arouse interest and at the same time level the
playing field for free.
<br>This is a ccTLD and so usage is a must but it could be adapted to other
foras.
<p>I think criticism from this group and with an eye toward WLS would be
helpful for this concept.
<br>VNNIC is a developing ccTLD and so they have the freedom to do what
is best.
<br>But if you look at it as an opportunity to get away from foregone methodology
and start afresh we all would appreciate input.
<p>Sincerely,
<br>Eric
<p><a href="https://www.dotvn.com/vnnic/expired.jsp">https://www.dotvn.com/vnnic/expired.jsp</a>
<br><a href="https://www.dotvn.com/vnnic/expired.jsp"></a>&nbsp;
<br><a href="https://www.dotvn.com/vnnic/expired.jsp"></a>&nbsp;</html>

- --------------E8A799F88AE6EBCA721801BA--

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 11:04:30 -0700
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] Motion

May we somehow set a motion to bring to a positive/negative discussion
regarding the very important Blueprint?

I believe we have a developed mechanism that allows me to ask for
discussion regarding such a matter and then bring a motion after
reasonable debate.

I have read the material several times and am quite concerned that we
give our input to the help of all concerned.

I ask Alexander to examine this issue and instruct me in the manner in
which I may fashion a motion.

Eric

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Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:44:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Karl Auerbach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] new elections for icannatlarge.com approaching

On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

> ....However, if you are interested in participating to
> icannatlarge.com or, more generally speaking, in defending the role of the
> public in the technical administration of the Internet, we encourage you to
> immediately start to do the following:

I do not see the logic that leads from your premise to your conclusion.  
The people who you elect will have no more power to affect ICANN's 
decisions than they do now - zero.

You are substituting toys for real life.

We have seen how ICANN lashed out against the GA when it dared to hold
advisory votes.  The body you advocate that we vote for will be much less
than the GA ever was, and that wasn't much.

		--karl--

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End of GA-DIGEST V1 #1314
*************************