Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #1313
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST            Friday, July 5 2002            Volume 01 : Number 1313

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Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 09:00:46 -0400
From: "L. Gallegos" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] lawyer Joe Sims to John Gilmore: "Doesn't have a clue" or ICANN must go!

No it does not.  It was incorporating the values, especially free speech.
"Article 19 of that Declaration, to wit:"
  "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this
  right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to
  seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and
  regardless of frontiers."

I saw nothing that incorporates the docuement itself.  It is not a matter 
of semantics at all.  

Leah

On 3 Jul 2002, at 16:51, Kent Crispin wrote:

> 
> You will doubtless quibble over semantics, but the phrase "The
> Corporation shall pursue its mission consistent with the values
> articulated by the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights"
> effectively incorporates the document. 
> 

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Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 09:14:51 -0500
From: [email-masked] (Kristy McKee)
Subject: Re: [ga] At-Large

Kent, ???

NO Person I know who DID VOTE as a member of the At-Large ever received an 
invitation to OPT-IN to be included during the voter registration process 
online or in the letter received to the physical mailbox with participant 
login information, never received any email from an ICANN At-Large Announce 
mail box, and certainly did not receive responses to questions sent to 
ICANN about the lack of information about the At-Large or HOW TO 
PARTICIPATE, etc.

The final report of the ALSC was not publicized to the list of registered 
At-Large voters or any major magazines or newspapers (in print or online).

The ALSC itself was not publicized to the list of registered At-Large voters.

ICANN did not enable participation of registered At-Large voters after the 
initial and ONLY vote.

Is there any question why so many people support Karl Auerbach's legal case 
against ICANN?

- ---

Too bad ICANN does not believe every citizen deserves the right to vote.

~k

At 05:02 PM 7/3/2002 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 08:02:12PM -0500, Kristy McKee wrote:
> > Kent, you have not told the truth and should apologize to the world for
> > it.
>
>Actually, you are the one who should apologize.
>
> From the final report of the ALSC:
>
>     Regular e-mail notices and solicitations to a self-selected "ALSC
>     announce list, " which included 5985 subscribers as of October 31
>     (an e-mail to ICANN's 143,789 member At-Large mailing list invited
>     people to "opt-in" by registering for this list).
>
>(http://www.atlargestudy.org/final_report.shtml#_toc523422645)
>
>--
>Kent Crispin, Technical Systems Manager, ICANN            [email-masked]
>"Be good, and you will be lonesome."  -- Mark Twain       [email-masked]
>
>
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Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 07:34:47 -0700
From: Gary Osbourne <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Joe Sims to Politech re: Gilmore interview

At 10:36 PM 03/07/02 -0400, L. Gallegos wrote:

>How much has it [Jones Day Reavis Pogue] grown since becoming
>ICANN's retained legal firm?

ICANN is probably only a small blip on JDRP's radar:
http://www1.jonesday.com/

Which is no excuse for not fully disclosing the amount
of that blip. -g

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Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 09:18:21 -0700
From: Gary Osbourne <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] At-Large

At 09:14 AM 04/07/02 -0500, Kristy McKee wrote:

>Too bad ICANN does not believe every citizen
>deserves the right to vote.

Women and colored folks can't be expected to
understand the issues like Kent does. -g

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Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 23:30:02 +0200
From: "J-F C. (Jefsey)  Morfin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] At-Large

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On 07:05 04/07/02, Karl Auerbach said:
>All that ICANN has done is to create a powerless and toothless garden
>club.  It's nothing but the old trick of a company union game wrapped with
>internet buzz.

If I recall correcly Joe Sims' Santiago document on [no] membership, the 
legal example for a no member corporation was a golf club.

- --=======9672794=======--

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Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 08:19:16 +1200
From: Joop Teernstra <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] At-Large

At 08:53 4/07/02, Thomas Roessler wrote:

>After all, most of the problems we are dealing with here are not so much 
>about technical, but rather about political feasibility, aren't they?

Correct.  And when you talk about political feasibility, you talk about 
power and about contesting that power.

It looks as if the political feasibility window is closing further with 
every subsequent  ICANN meeting.
The At Large members have to ask themselves the question whether they want 
to be mere decoration, legitimizing an industry association, or whether 
they want to create their own separate power base.

Acting from weakness, unorganized, betrayed by  people like Carl 
Bildt,  they first have to create strenght by finding strong international 
alliances and eliminate   from their own ranks what weakens them.

- --Joop

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Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 00:49:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Ray Fassett" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] At-Large 

Kristy Mckee writes:

"Too bad ICANN does not believe every citizen deserves the right to vote."

I believe it was James Love who quoted Esther Dyson running around
Bucharest preaching how "not all governments believe in Democracy".

And now there is the Joe Sims version of democracy & ICANN (of course,
under the "consensus" umbrella):

"Gilmore is one of a group of American critics who assume that American
values and reactions are and should be determinative in decisions about
ICANN...."

"To Gilmore, there apparently are no other relevant governments
other than the US government..."

It's not just about the right to vote, a basic democratic freedom.  It is
about many other values America is built upon such as free market
competition, rights to due process, public accountability, and checks and
balances (all included in the White Paper, btw).  It is true that Americans
tend to make a lot of noise when these basic democratic functions are non-
existent even to the point to where this noise is "not coincidentally far
louder than the non-American critics".  No kidding.  So, I guess we are
supposed to just shut up instead of going on and on with our "head-in-the-
sand attitude [that] is unfortunately quite common among ICANN's American
critics" (Joe Sims).

I frankly don't give a damn about non-democratic governmental views that
are "not uniformly consistent" with a democracy as this relates
specifically to ICANN decision-making processes.  I am unclear why Sims or
ICANN believes it should.  There is no world flag of higher ground than the
rights of the free world that America leads (and Sims demeans via
backhanded insults to both Gilmore and Aurbach).  There should be no "geo-
political issues swirling around ICANN" that in any way move away from
basic democratic governance of the Internet where ICANN is concerned.
Delegating to non-democratic ccTLD operators the ability to operate their
TLD however they please is as far as ICANN needs to go in its "consensus"
process.  This is one area where the ITU gets it right.

To suggest non-democratic "geo-political issues" somehow interesect with
ICANN decision-making processes (as Sims and Dyson both do) is
irresponsible as is the demeaning of Americans that believe till the death
basic democratic rights by characterizing this as having "their head in the
sand".  Perhaps Mr. Sims the lawyer would like to try arguing this one to
DoC as justification to remove elections, competition, due process from
ICANN towards forming a functional consensus process.

Kristy McKee says "Too bad ICANN does not believe every citizen deserves
the right to vote."  Look at what Sims and Dyson are saying...they explain
themselves quite well.

Ray

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Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 01:41:26 -0700
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] At-Large

Ray and all assembly members, stakeholders of other interested parties,

Ray Fassett wrote:

> Kristy Mckee writes:
>
> "Too bad ICANN does not believe every citizen deserves the right to vote."
>
> I believe it was James Love who quoted Esther Dyson running around
> Bucharest preaching how "not all governments believe in Democracy".

  And Esther is right.  However very few governments do not believe
in democracy, are already democratic nations, or are embracing basic
democratic values.  Hence Esther was grossly overstating herself
and this skewed position.

>
>
> And now there is the Joe Sims version of democracy & ICANN (of course,
> under the "consensus" umbrella):
>
> "Gilmore is one of a group of American critics who assume that American
> values and reactions are and should be determinative in decisions about
> ICANN...."

  As ICANN is a California non-profit corp. or is supposed to be, Gilmore
is quite right in his position and Joe is missing the reality or just plain
denying it.

>
>
> "To Gilmore, there apparently are no other relevant governments
> other than the US government..."

  Gilmore never said what Joe Sims characterizes here.  This it
just some of Joe's political grandstanding of which he is well known
for of late...

>
>
> It's not just about the right to vote, a basic democratic freedom.  It is
> about many other values America is built upon such as free market
> competition, rights to due process, public accountability, and checks and
> balances (all included in the White Paper, btw).

  Exactly right.  And this is something that the ICANN BoD and staff
have either missed entirely, or have chosen to ignore for many known,
and unknown reasons.

>  It is true that Americans
> tend to make a lot of noise when these basic democratic functions are non-
> existent even to the point to where this noise is "not coincidentally far
> louder than the non-American critics".  No kidding.  So, I guess we are
> supposed to just shut up instead of going on and on with our "head-in-the-
> sand attitude [that] is unfortunately quite common among ICANN's American
> critics" (Joe Sims).

  The problem here is that the largest number of critics to ICANN and Joe
sims in particular are not coming from the United States or are American, but
rather from the EU, and asia.

>
>
> I frankly don't give a damn about non-democratic governmental views that
> are "not uniformly consistent" with a democracy as this relates
> specifically to ICANN decision-making processes.  I am unclear why Sims or
> ICANN believes it should.  There is no world flag of higher ground than the
> rights of the free world that America leads (and Sims demeans via
> backhanded insults to both Gilmore and Aurbach).

  Joe not only insults Gilmore and Auerbach, but anyone, including
one of our directors, Bob Davis.  Anyone that does not agree with Joe,
it seems from Joe's own statements of late, is seemingly not worth
considering seriously if at all...

> There should be no "geo-
> political issues swirling around ICANN" that in any way move away from
> basic democratic governance of the Internet where ICANN is concerned.
> Delegating to non-democratic ccTLD operators the ability to operate their
> TLD however they please is as far as ICANN needs to go in its "consensus"
> process.  This is one area where the ITU gets it right.

  Very good point here...

>
>
> To suggest non-democratic "geo-political issues" somehow interesect with
> ICANN decision-making processes (as Sims and Dyson both do) is
> irresponsible as is the demeaning of Americans that believe till the death
> basic democratic rights by characterizing this as having "their head in the
> sand".

  Such geo-political ideas are not just demeaning to Americans, but any and
all democratic governments, and peoples/stakeholders/users who's democratic
values and systems of government are being trodded upon in Joe's and
Esther Dysons rhetoric.  It is threatening as well, not just demeaning...

>  Perhaps Mr. Sims the lawyer would like to try arguing this one to
> DoC as justification to remove elections, competition, due process from
> ICANN towards forming a functional consensus process.

  Consensus cannot be determined unless it can be measured.  That
requires a vote by any and all stakeholders of interested parties
in accordance with the White Paper and the MoU.

>
>
> Kristy McKee says "Too bad ICANN does not believe every citizen deserves
> the right to vote."  Look at what Sims and Dyson are saying...they explain
> themselves quite well.

  Yes they did in Bucharest.  Especially Esther Dyson.  The emperor has no
clothes.

>
>
> Ray
>
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>
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Regards,
- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 124k members/stakeholders strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-244-3801 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 18:51:06 +1000 
From: "McMeikan, Andrew" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] anti-wls petition

To All,
	please be advised that I have place a petition at
http://www.petitiononline.com/antiwls/ to protest against the WLS

I would urge you to add you name in opposition.

I will notify the names council of its existence so that it may be
considered in their recommendations to the board.

	cya,	Andrew...

This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended recipient(s) only.  It may contain proprietary material, confidential information and/or be subject to legal privilege.  It should not be copied, disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party.  If you are not an intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any attachment and all copies and inform the sender.  Thank you.
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Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 11:37:32 +0200
From: "J-F C. (Jefsey)  Morfin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] At-Large 

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On 06:49 05/07/02, Ray Fassett said:
>Kristy Mckee writes:
>"Too bad ICANN does not believe every citizen deserves the right to vote."

I am afraid we serve Joe Sims interests here. He is genuinely frustrated by 
the lack of some basic understandings by his fellow countrymen, but this is 
just the dressing.

1. Kristy: democracy must not be confused with votes. You have democracy by 
representation and democracy by delegation. In Athens only 500 people 
voted. In the USA only citizens of age can vote. Ages of vote varies among 
countries. Number of candidates and ways of voting vary. 99,99% for the 
single candidate is not what I call democracy. In Bucharest every Director 
was allowed to vote ....

2. Ray: your reaction is a pure demonstration of what Joe says. I am sorry, 
I do respect and share most of the ideas of the US democracy which fit well 
the needs of a federated nation with a rather simple common law practice 
and a short legal history.

>So, I guess we are supposed to just shut up instead of going on and on 
>with our "head-in-the-sand attitude [that] is unfortunately quite common 
>among ICANN's American critics" (Joe Sims).

I will certainly not take the USA as a model for democracy and for loyal 
commercial practices because I will take no one: every country culture has 
con and pros and should work for improvement and for adaptation to the real 
world. To understand and accept that, as Joe and Esther do, is what many 
call civilization. But civilization also comes with mutual respect: when 
some are more civilized than others, many call it machiavellism

We have to accept that the ICANN is not to manage the Internet but to 
manage us. Its true role is to protect the "stakeholders" from the market 
leading forces which are seen as competition or dangers fo the network 
stability (competition, politics, lobbies, NGOs, experts, activists, 
foreign govs, techies, consumer organizations, etc.). Statu quo is the key 
word - the DNS never changed in 18 years since we delegated it under the 
State Department, ITU and foreign Govs (monopolies of the time) approval.

I can only admire Joe's memo. The vote of the BoD he is so proud of is a 
master piece of influence over the last six months. I would be really glad 
to know the truth about Karl's not showing up. Worked out? Luck?  Now what 
is (by chance or by intent?) the effect of his memo? Joe will be able to 
produce it to show that Gillmore's testimony about Vint is part of a 
personal feud of Gillmore against Joe, dating from the Postel's days. That 
it is rooted in a loony proposition of Gillmore rightfully refused by Joe. 
Joe did not quote anything real, many texts with references where quoted in 
response, but the harm was done. It might be the same in front of a Court.

I am very interested also to learn that JDRP is not looking for long term 
customers. Also that a single individual with no legal case, being helped 
by one lawyer (and may be one or two assistants) in a USG support matter, 
may get a 1 million dollar bill. If JDRP cancelled the bill either JDRP is 
in the charity business and should get tax deductions, either it was 
favoritism and in some way Jon Postel, or IANA, should be taxed on the 
advantages they obtained, either it is a fantasy say which may cost a lot 
to JDRP as other clients may ask for the same treatment, or it was a pure 
investment that would not pay back and Joe's leaving is to cut on JDRP's 
losses. I am interested in knowing who Joe is going to replace the ICANN 
with? and what about Louis?

I can also only admire the way the Blueprint is worded in order to close 
the mouth and ambitions of the @large and of EEC and others. The @large 
trap was triggered first. The use of Vittorio was brillant, but Vittorio is 
a smart and honnest fellow, so let watch what happens. The GAC's trap was 
the usual way (last minute document saying that this will not happen 
again). The EEC trap is a very good one. It will be triggered probably this 
summer. There are some other traps, some we see, some we do not see yet. 
Joe and some others are far better at managing human networks ties than 
Internet links :-)

Since, I am only interested in servicing the Internet Participants we are 
on planets apart..
jfc

- --=======47CA4BD9=======--

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Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:34:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Ray Fassett" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] At-Large 

Jefsey writes:

Ray: your reaction is a pure demonstration of what Joe says.

But of course it is.  Thank you for recognizing that.

Ray

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End of GA-DIGEST V1 #1313
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