Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #1165
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST            Tuesday, May 7 2002            Volume 01 : Number 1165

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 00:01:12 -0500
From: "Hugh Blair" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] POLL RESULTS: Motion asking for GA poll on rebid of ICANN contract

> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Joanna Lane
> 
> Jeff,
> Some members made comments that seemed to favor one position or another, but
> they did not make a clear statement such as "I support a Vote", hence their
> names do not appear on the list. If you made a clear statement and I missed
> it, I apologize, but please cite the URL, together with any others you think
> have been overlooked. Thanks.

Joanna, please add my name to those in support of this motion.

- -Hugh
[email-masked]
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Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 22:22:16 -0700
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] decorum

Apparently there are quite a few new folks around and some old ones may
need a reminder.

Joanna is doing some really good work here keeping us on track and
guiding our procedural protocal.
She is a little procedurally overboard for me, but that is because I
like things really lose.

But understand this;  I believe that her work is imperative to the
correct fulfilment of the obligations of us dotcommoners.  Therefor I
request all to not attack or diminish her work in any way.  Add to the
work but do not hurt its' benefit.  So unless you have really clean
underwear do not get in a wreck with this locomotive.

I hereby demand that she maintain a right to exceed posting limits
through to vote on re-bidding.

Carry on.
e

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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 18:43:49 +1200
From: Joop Teernstra <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] POLL RESULTS: Motion asking for GA poll on rebid of ICANN contract

Joanna Lane wrote:

>Members who have indicated their disagreement with taking a Vote:-
>
>Marilyn Cade
>William X Walsh
>Asaad Alnajjar
>Joop Teernstra

I agreed with taking the vote, but not with the 10 days.
Please read my posting again and change your summation.

- --Joop

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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:11:23 +0200
From: "Philip Sheppard" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Rights and responsibilities

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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The situation with sanctions on the non-commercial constituency for =
non-payment of DNSO fees to cover the cost of secretariat services is on =
hold pending a recommendation from the NC's budget committee.

On the more general point, proposals for a realistic and effective =
alternative remedy to the DNSO's CURRENT funding problem would be =
welcome.

Philip Sheppard
NC Chair

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The situation with sanctions on the non-commercial=20
constituency for non-payment of DNSO fees to cover the cost of =
secretariat=20
services is on hold pending a recommendation from the NC's budget=20
committee.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>On the more general point, proposals for a realistic =
and=20
effective alternative remedy to the DNSO's CURRENT funding problem would =
be=20
welcome.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Philip Sheppard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>NC Chair</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 04:28:22 -0400
From: "James Love" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Rights and responsibilities

I don't think the user groups should be on the same dues structure as the
provider interests, unless you want to limit the user voice.     Even the
ITU provides fee waivers for some groups.  Jamie

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Sheppard" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 3:11 AM
Subject: [ga] Rights and responsibilities

The situation with sanctions on the non-commercial constituency for
non-payment of DNSO fees to cover the cost of secretariat services is on
hold pending a recommendation from the NC's budget committee.

On the more general point, proposals for a realistic and effective
alternative remedy to the DNSO's CURRENT funding problem would be welcome.

Philip Sheppard
NC Chair

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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:45:11 +0200
From: "Philip Sheppard" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Rights and responsibilities

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Jamie Love wrote : "I don't think the user groups should be on the same =
dues structure as the
provider interests"

Well you have my support there Jamie!

Philip - speaking as a member of a user group.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jamie Love wrote : "I don't think the user groups =
should be on=20
the same dues structure as the<BR>provider interests"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Well you have my support there Jamie!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Philip - speaking as a member of a user =
group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 12:31:17 +0200
From: Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Watching the voting registry

On Mon, 06 May 2002 23:30:48 +0200, you wrote:

>Which is an increase by almost twenty percent since
>the last GA vote on 4 January 2002.
>http://www.dnso.org/secretariat/b11.rosterindex.html
>Since then, we suddenly have 85 new entries in the 
>voting registry, of which 92.9% are from the US.
>Now, more than half of the voting registry consists
>of entries from the USA. The optimist would call
>this outreach which is great and welcome. The pessimist
>would call it a great way to show how fragile the
>current GA structures are if you try to push hard.

I too am a newcomer on this list, though a very strange one, having
been active in ICANN since two years ago.

Being a newcomer, I did not want to enter in this debate, but about
this specific point, I really want to bring the experience that was
made by all of us involved in the At Large movement.

In year 2000, for the first At Large elections, we had similar
outreach campaigns on an even bigger scale, that were done on the line
of "go here and register and vote for our candidate", based on
simplified versions of the facts, without even giving people a clue
about what ICANN is, what it does, and all the very complex context
and structure in which it moves. The result was a short term victory
in terms of quantity of the participation, but a long term defeat, as
it was later clear to anyone that many of the people who registered
for the vote had no means to make their informed opinion, and so
phenomena such as "national capture" or bulk registrations were
evident, and were used to give credibility to the idea that online
elections are impossible. Even if much of the blame for these problems
must go to ICANN's bad organization of the event (many think it was
intentional), we now know that looking for people to be brought inside
a voting roll for a single vote will eventually blow up the whole
house.

Everybody knows that I have been very critical to ICANN - and if
someone read the comment I sent to the Reform Committee, I'm clearly
presenting a rebid or alternative roots as likely and necessary
solutions in the case ICANN will not reverse its direction. But
please, this is a very difficult and complex moment, and everyone
should work for unity, not to divide and conquer with any possible
means.

So everyone is free to register and to vote as he/she wishes, and if
the majority of the GA wants to say to ICANN that they should go to
hell and burn in flames, the GA has the right to do so, and no
procedural issues should prevent it from doing so, even if my opinion
is that this will not make the cause of public representation inside
ICANN gain even one inch, and perhaps will make us lose yards, and
that a motion on the softer line of "there should be a rebid if ICANN
does not include a proper way of representation of the public in its
Board" would be much better for everyone, and would avoid breaking the
GA in two.

The only thing I'm asking to everyone, and especially to newcomers
like me, is: before casting a vote, be sure you understand what the GA
is, what the current ICANN scenario is like, and what you are voting
about.
- -- 
.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo vb.
Vittorio Bertola     <[email-masked]>    Ph. +39 011 23381220
Vitaminic [The Music Evolution] - Vice President for Technology

DISCLAIMER, PLEASE NOTE: This communication is intended only for use by the
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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:41:28 +0200
From: jefsey <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Internet is for everyone - even Martians!

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http://rfc3271.x42.com/

Internet is for everyone - except NCDNHC, Open Roots, New.net, 
non-contracting ccTLDs ... ?

Dear Vint,
why not to say that "everynet" is for everyone, including the Internet [the 
word you coined for the legacy], ccNet, .eunet, newnet, govnet 
(gov/mil/edu/us), ITU/T Telephone, TV, Radio, ISSN, WIPO, etc.. so everyone 
may develop in good concertation and in peace ... and promote new solutions?

as you note it the challenge is important, actually I think it is more than 
what you think, but let try to phrase it slighly differently. Let say that 
the International datanetwork "hardware" system is to support in the 20 
years to come the integration of different large "software" applications to 
support the need of the "brainware" (what the people's brain do) and of the 
computerware (what the people's computers do).
Each of these applications, like the virtual private distributed computer 
system, automation, e-money, authentification, localisation, music, 
telemedecine, etc. will probably be far larger than the web today. Calling 
for new protocols and certainly for a new network architecture.

Our challenge is to sort it out ; routing, protocols, applications, market 
researches, look and feel, education and training, laws, 
value-added/extended services and products, behaviours, financing, people's 
and govs adhésion etc.. and technical transition. When we see IPv6 
compelxity, the task ahead is not simple. So why to complexify it at the 
begining of the road over the DNS and the ICANN ?
jfc

PS. I would understand that you want to retain "Internet" as a name for the 
whole world system value added layer, then let not confuse it with the 
LegacyNet management. Kill the ICANN and rebuild it as LegaCANN for the 
Legacy management and as a technical secretariat for the International 
consensus shared (not served, not controled) with the ITU/T, along with 
Harald's business plan.

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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:43:24 +0200
From: jefsey <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Slashdot.

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Makes a ballance with you and me :-)
Everyone needed in democracy : a lot of potential followers.
jfc

On 01:29 07/05/02, William X Walsh said:

>Monday, May 06, 2002, 1:40:53 PM, Thomas Roessler wrote:
>
> > Alexander found this.
>
> > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/05/04/1839234
>
>That explains the new comers coming here and posting that single
>message.
>
>People who have never participated in the process.
>
>--
>Best regards,
>William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
>--
>Save Internet Radio!
>CARP will kill Webcasting!
>http://www.saveinternetradio.org/
>
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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:46:33 +0200
From: jefsey <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Slashdot.

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What is surprising is that the US law made alphanumeric pointers speculatable.
How much would you sell me your Social Security Number?
jfc

On 04:55 07/05/02, Dan Steinberg said:

>actually this is a no-brainer.
>its a recognized part of the political process.  people do it for
>elections and party conventions all the time.  We should be
>surprised....if it *didnt* happen, not that it happens.
>
>To me it is analagous to the whole speculation issue. People speculate
>in land, air, fish, grain futures, stock market derivatives, sports
>outcomes, etc.  Yet....some are suprised and even shocked...that people
>have the nerve to speculate about domain names???????
>
>Just because it's the net....doesnt make it always different.
>
>
>Dan Steinberg
>Synthesis: Law & Technology
>(613) 794-5356
>
>
>Eric Dierker wrote:
> >
> > Well sh--,
> >
> > You have a good point here William.
> >
> > I think in general we have a problem houston.
> >
> > This is what I have been putting off outreach about.
> >
> > You have any solutions?
> >
> > E
> >
> > William X Walsh wrote:
> >
> > > Monday, May 06, 2002, 5:57:42 PM, Eric Dierker wrote:
> > >
> > > > We really have to do some thinking here.
> > >
> > > > Do you want new people or not.  You cannot greet them with a closed 
> club
> > > > attitude and act like they do not belong here if they have not been 
> here
> > > > and really do any kind of outreach.  You cannot only welcome seasoned
> > > > engineers and expect this bottoms up experiment to work.
> > >
> > > The issue, Eric and everyone else, is that they are coming in for the
> > > sole purpose of trying to influence the outcome of a single issue, not
> > > to be a part of the overall process.
> > >
> > > If the outreach was to have a voice within the ICANN/DNSO process,
> > > rather than recruiting people for the specific purpose of supporting
> > > Jamie's attempt at trying to embarrass ICANN at the expense of the
> > > legitimacy of the DNSO GA, then I would have no problem with it at
> > > all.
> > >
> > > But in this case, it is ONLY resulting in getting voices to back up
> > > his little agenda.
> > >
> > > And in so doing, he has proven ICANN right about the GA, and further
> > > justified their completely ignoring us.
> > >
> > > Bravo, Jamie, Bravo.  You have played right into their hands.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > > William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
> > > --
> > > Save Internet Radio!
> > > CARP will kill Webcasting!
> > > http://www.saveinternetradio.org/
> >
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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 13:02:07 +0200
From: Thomas Roessler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Watching the voting registry

On 2002-05-07 12:31:17 +0200, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

>The only thing I'm asking to everyone, and especially to newcomers 
>like me, is: before casting a vote, be sure you understand what  
>the GA is, what the current ICANN scenario is like, and what you  
>are voting about.

That may be possible if the "outreach" done by James would actually  
ask people to subscribe to this list.

It doesn't: People are given the pointer to the voting registry  
subscription information, and they are specifically encouraged to  
register for the _vote_.

- -- 
Thomas Roessler                          http://log.does-not-exist.org/
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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 04:24:14 -0700
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Watching the voting registry

Tuesday, May 07, 2002, 4:02:07 AM, Thomas Roessler wrote:

> On 2002-05-07 12:31:17 +0200, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

>>The only thing I'm asking to everyone, and especially to newcomers 
>>like me, is: before casting a vote, be sure you understand what  
>>the GA is, what the current ICANN scenario is like, and what you  
>>are voting about.

> That may be possible if the "outreach" done by James would actually  
> ask people to subscribe to this list.

> It doesn't: People are given the pointer to the voting registry  
> subscription information, and they are specifically encouraged to  
> register for the _vote_.

Great, then they can ALL be disregarded.

Unless they are a member of this list, or a member of a recognized
constituency list, they are not qualified as GA voters under our
rules.

- -- 
Best regards,
William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
- --
Save Internet Radio!  
CARP will kill Webcasting!
http://www.saveinternetradio.org/

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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 14:28:26 +0200
From: jefsey <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Watching the voting registry

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On 13:24 07/05/02, William X Walsh said:
>Great, then they can ALL be disregarded.
>
>Unless they are a member of this list, or a member of a recognized 
>constituency list, they are not qualified as GA voters under our rules

This is one the absudities of the program. Either you are a member and you 
vote or you are not. All this is to make it complicate to the @large to 
participate. If you look at the list you will see that many active people 
are no voters. jfc

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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 05:56:58 -0700
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Watching the voting registry

Tuesday, May 07, 2002, 5:28:26 AM, jefsey wrote:

> On 13:24 07/05/02, William X Walsh said:
>>Great, then they can ALL be disregarded.
>>
>>Unless they are a member of this list, or a member of a recognized 
>>constituency list, they are not qualified as GA voters under our rules

> This is one the absudities of the program. Either you are a member and you 
> vote or you are not. All this is to make it complicate to the @large to 
> participate. If you look at the list you will see that many active people 
> are no voters. jfc

In order to vote, you must be a member and register in the voting
registry.

Both requirements must be met.  How can you legitimately vote and
claim to know the issue if you are not a member of the assembly?

It is the rule, and it is a legitimate rule.

- -- 
Best regards,
William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
- --
Save Internet Radio!  
CARP will kill Webcasting!
http://www.saveinternetradio.org/

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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 06:45:51 -0700
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] disclosure

TR and AS seem to be running a completely different agenda.

for one they were elected by the same voter type turnout that JL is
running for his rebid campaign.

for two they seem to use their censorship roll very selectively to
attack those opposed to them, but not those alligned with them.

for three AS spends all of his time and TRs' group hosts the AL lists.

for four this wholesale opposition to voting is incredible.

for five the summaries are now part of the official documents of the GA
and they stink.
(this post will never make it there because TR has publicly stated he
hates me and won't include me)

for six they are constantly fed and lap up the insiders milk of ICANN.

I would like a little disclosure as to what their agenda is at this
time.

Sincerely,
Eric

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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 06:56:43 -0700
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [ga] Watching the voting registry

Quite right here on protocol,

However you stink on knowing the issues.

For you and your kind "knowing the issues" means seeing them your way.

You TR and AS are destroying any chance the ICANN has of succeeding by being
elitist pigs.
Vint, Louis, Andrew, Joe, Ester and Harald and TR all make great cases for birth
control among the privileged.

Why some fine Euro folks buy into this US centric swill is beyond me.  But let
us call a spade a spade.
You guys want this a closed club for those who see things your way.  Keep
putting fingers in it but that dike will break, and the Mighty Miss will keep on
rollin.

I of course direct this at Walsh and not the esteemed Mr. Jefsey.

Sincerely,
Eric

William X Walsh wrote:

> Tuesday, May 07, 2002, 5:28:26 AM, jefsey wrote:
>
> > On 13:24 07/05/02, William X Walsh said:
> >>Great, then they can ALL be disregarded.
> >>
> >>Unless they are a member of this list, or a member of a recognized
> >>constituency list, they are not qualified as GA voters under our rules
>
> > This is one the absudities of the program. Either you are a member and you
> > vote or you are not. All this is to make it complicate to the @large to
> > participate. If you look at the list you will see that many active people
> > are no voters. jfc
>
> In order to vote, you must be a member and register in the voting
> registry.
>
> Both requirements must be met.  How can you legitimately vote and
> claim to know the issue if you are not a member of the assembly?
>
> It is the rule, and it is a legitimate rule.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
> --
> Save Internet Radio!
> CARP will kill Webcasting!
> http://www.saveinternetradio.org/
>
> --
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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 15:54:22 +0200 (CEST)
From: Marc Schneiders <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Watching the voting registry

The discussion about calls to register votes seems to me to go nowhere for
two reasons:

1. I sense a different attitude to this on both sides of the Atlantic
Ocean, caused by the ways in which voting registries for national
elections work (as far as I know) in the US and Europe. In the US one has
to register in order to vote. Winning elections means in part making
your potential voters register.

2. There is no way out of this. During the At Large elections of 2002 we
saw campaigns to register for the elections in Asia and the German
language area in Europe, which resulted in an unbalanced electorate.
Outcries against this are no help. Go get your own voters in, I would
say. Protests etc. are only legitimate if there is fraud, e.g. people
registering several times with different names/email addresses.

Those who read Slashdot _are_ interested. They do not have to read the
bylaws of ICANN in order to vote. Most voters in my country have never
read the Constitution, and do not even know much about what is in it. I do
see that it is a good idea to inform people that one tries to get into
registering into the issues. Politicians do that too. Naturally from their
own perspective. If you have a different perspective from Jamie Love, tell
that on Slashdot too?

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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:55:35 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [ga] Rights and responsibilities

Philip,

You have asked for a solution to solve the DNSO's current budget problems.  
Many organizations and individuals have been compensated by ICANN for their 
services:  

the Darwin Group (consulting)  -- $216,000
Jones, Day, Reavis and Pogue (legal services) -- $637,863
USC (tech services) -- $207,564
Alexander Ogilvy (public affairs) -- $302,557
Andrew McLaughlin (consulting) -- $97,900

data from:  http://www.icann.org/financials/tax/us/99form990-scha-1.htm

The DNSO also provides valuable services to ICANN.  Go ahead and send them an 
invoice for consulting fees.  Since we aren't "members" of ICANN, we have a 
right to request compensation for services rendered, and ICANN has the 
responsibility to pay those that provide it with services.

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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 11:08:25 -0400
From: "James Love" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] What is the GA?

I'm not quite sure if I understand the offense that Thomas, Alexander,
William and a few others have taken to encouraging  people to register to
vote in the GA.   When Thomas announced he would allow a vote on the rebid,
I checked and found out that I wasn't registered to vote, even though I have
been on this list for years.  Lots of other people who post aren't listed as
voters, and also lots of people who don't enjoy the daily bickering on the
GA list but have participated in the GA in the f2f meetings.  I assumed the
GA was the one place left where *anyone* who cared about DNS policy could
have a voice.   It doesn't have any power, but at least it was open.
Alexander got all worked up over posts to the NCDNHC, ICANNWatch and
Slashdot.....   3 pretty obvious places to look to find people who can spell
ICANN and who might be remotely interested in voting on an ICANN related
issue.  I don't think of any of these three lists are being particularly US
centric, but also, I assumed that the ICANN-Europe and various Asian, Latin
Am or Africa discussions on ICANN related issues actually talk about stuff
that goes on (other than the daily trading of personal insults).... which I
would think would be a good thing.    If it was up to me, I would encourage
much broader information about a vote, to allow anyone who had an opinion
about the ICANN contract to vote, and hope for press interest in a vote, if
one could actually interest the press.   This is how people find out about
things.    Now perhaps this is a misunderstanding, and perhaps it is wrong
to generate any interest in an issue as fundamental as a rebid on the ICANN
contract, outside of those who have to wade through the daily GA list
traffic.  Maybe an endless capacity to read email from an ICANN listserve is
the true test of someone qualified to express opinions on ICANN.    Sort of
an endurance test?

Jamie

http://www.dnso.org/dnso/aboutdnso.html

A General Assembly ("GA"), consisting of all interested individuals and
entities.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

      THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY

        (a) The GA shall be an open forum for participation in the work of
the DNSO, and open to all who are willing to contribute effort to the work
of the DNSO. The participants in the GA should be individuals who have a
knowledge of and an interest in issues pertaining to the areas for which the
DNSO has primary responsibility, and who are willing to contribute time,
effort and expertise to the work of the DNSO, including work item proposal
and development, discussion of work items, draft document preparation, and
participation in research and drafting committees and working groups.

        (b) The GA shall meet at least once a year, if possible in
conjunction with regularly scheduled meetings of the Board. To the maximum
extent practicable, all meetings should be available for online attendance
as well as physical attendance.

        (c) The costs of GA meetings shall be the responsibility of the
DNSO, which may levy an equitable, cost-based fee on GA attendees to recoup
those costs. There shall be no other fees required to participate in the GA.

        (d) The GA shall nominate, pursuant to procedures adopted by the NC
and approved by the Board, persons to serve on the Board in those seats
reserved for the DNSO.

- --------------------------------
James Love mailto:[email-masked]
http://www.cptech.org +1.202.387.8030 mobile +1.202.361.3040

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End of GA-DIGEST V1 #1165
*************************