Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #1093
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST           Tuesday, March 19 2002           Volume 01 : Number 1093

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:05:55 -0800
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Substance over rhetoric - a constructive challenge

Tuesday, Tuesday, March 19, 2002, 5:58:07 AM, Esther Dyson wrote:

> Okay... Joanna, would you be willing to take this on fulltime if you were 
> elected/selected/whatever?

I don't think Joanna is well suited for that.  Her diplomacy skills
are sorely lacking, and she has a tendency to jump to conclusions and
attack before looking at all the evidence/facts.

She is publicly hostile to the idea of openness and inclusiveness in
the At Large already.

Your candidate was really one of the best choices that could have been
made.  They are not bashing the choice, they are bashing you making
it.

And for that reason they should just be ignored.

- -- 
Best regards,
William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
- --
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CARP will kill Webcasting!
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:14:29 -0800
From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Substance over rhetoric - a constructive challenge

William X Walsh wrote:
> 
> Tuesday, Tuesday, March 19, 2002, 5:58:07 AM, Esther Dyson wrote:
> 
> > Okay... Joanna, would you be willing to take this on fulltime if you were
> > elected/selected/whatever?
> 
> I don't think Joanna is well suited for that.  Her diplomacy skills
> are sorely lacking, and she has a tendency to jump to conclusions and
> attack before looking at all the evidence/facts.
> 
> She is publicly hostile to the idea of openness and inclusiveness in
> the At Large already.
> 

This is an unsubstantiated charge of the sort that William
X. Walsh likes to fling about without producing any
evidence.  It is his mainstay tactic.  I challenge him to
produce the evidence for such a charge.  Unless he can
produce such evidence his further comments on the topic
are best ignored as he has an established record of
casting aspersions without providing evidence for his
claims.  Mr. Walsh likes to cast mud at people in the hope
that some of it will stick if he throws enough of it
about.  

- -- 
Sincerely,

Sotiris Sotiropoulos
	Hermes Network Inc.
	Toronto, Canada

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:34:02 -0800
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Substance over rhetoric - a constructive challenge

Tuesday, Tuesday, March 19, 2002, 9:14:29 AM, Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote:

> William X Walsh wrote:
>> 
>> Tuesday, Tuesday, March 19, 2002, 5:58:07 AM, Esther Dyson wrote:
>> 
>> > Okay... Joanna, would you be willing to take this on fulltime if you were
>> > elected/selected/whatever?
>> 
>> I don't think Joanna is well suited for that.  Her diplomacy skills
>> are sorely lacking, and she has a tendency to jump to conclusions and
>> attack before looking at all the evidence/facts.
>> 
>> She is publicly hostile to the idea of openness and inclusiveness in
>> the At Large already.
>> 

> This is an unsubstantiated charge of the sort that William
> X. Walsh likes to fling about without producing any
> evidence.  It is his mainstay tactic.

I've never made a charge I couldn't back up with evidence, Sotiris.
Now, if you want to play that game, we can go to the IDNO archives and
see many times when you have.

> I challenge him to
> produce the evidence for such a charge.

How quickly you forget when it is convenient for you.

Go read this whole thread:
http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc09/msg01186.html

And then I Demand an apology.  You are lucky I don't file an abuse
complaint against you for your attacks.

You also came out and took the same position she did with regard to
excluding people from participating in what is supposed to be an open
and inclusive process in the same thread.

Or did you conveniently forget that too?

- -- 
Best regards,
William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
- --
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:45:14 -0800
From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Substance over rhetoric - a constructive challenge

Marilyn Cade is a DNSO Names Council rep for AT&T, as
such   

William X Walsh wrote:
> 
> 
> I've never made a charge I couldn't back up with evidence, Sotiris.
> Now, if you want to play that game, we can go to the IDNO archives and
> see many times when you have.
> 
> > I challenge him to
> > produce the evidence for such a charge.
> 
> How quickly you forget when it is convenient for you.
> 
> Go read this whole thread:
> http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc09/msg01186.html

I suggest you read the posting yourself bfore attempting
to hermeneutically manipulate its content.  Joanna was
simply asking Marilyn Cade to clarify her position vis a
vis participation in the AtLarge, nothing more or less
than that.  

This is not evidence in support of your charge, frankly
it's more of your typical tripe.  Produce evidence for
your charges or keep such comments to yourself.

> 
> And then I Demand an apology.  You are lucky I don't file an abuse
> complaint against you for your attacks.

Go ahead file away, I stand by my comments.  You are a
disruptive element and everyone who has seen you in action
knows it.  

> 
> You also came out and took the same position she did with regard to
> excluding people from participating in what is supposed to be an open
> and inclusive process in the same thread.

My position is not the issue here.  You have still not
produced any evidence of Joanna's hostility to
inclusiveness.  You prolixity is simply not enough, I'm
afraid. Now put up, or shut up.

- -- 
Sincerely,

Sotiris Sotiropoulos
	Hermes Network Inc.
	Toronto, Canada

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:54:52 -0800
From: William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Substance over rhetoric - a constructive challenge

I said read the whole thread, Sotiris.

Joanna won't deny what I said either, as I know she stands by her
views and doesn't deny them later when it may not suit her.   She made
it clear that the she felt that those who participate in other aspects
of ICANN should not be joining the At Large.  The message was clear,
and plainly spelled it out.

Read the whole thread, Sotiris, not just the parts that suit you.

Tuesday, Tuesday, March 19, 2002, 9:45:14 AM, Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote:

> Marilyn Cade is a DNSO Names Council rep for AT&T, as
> such   

> William X Walsh wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I've never made a charge I couldn't back up with evidence, Sotiris.
>> Now, if you want to play that game, we can go to the IDNO archives and
>> see many times when you have.
>> 
>> > I challenge him to
>> > produce the evidence for such a charge.
>> 
>> How quickly you forget when it is convenient for you.
>> 
>> Go read this whole thread:
>> http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc09/msg01186.html

> I suggest you read the posting yourself bfore attempting
> to hermeneutically manipulate its content.  Joanna was
> simply asking Marilyn Cade to clarify her position vis a
> vis participation in the AtLarge, nothing more or less
> than that.  

> This is not evidence in support of your charge, frankly
> it's more of your typical tripe.  Produce evidence for
> your charges or keep such comments to yourself.

>> 
>> And then I Demand an apology.  You are lucky I don't file an abuse
>> complaint against you for your attacks.

> Go ahead file away, I stand by my comments.  You are a
> disruptive element and everyone who has seen you in action
> knows it.  

>> 
>> You also came out and took the same position she did with regard to
>> excluding people from participating in what is supposed to be an open
>> and inclusive process in the same thread.

> My position is not the issue here.  You have still not
> produced any evidence of Joanna's hostility to
> inclusiveness.  You prolixity is simply not enough, I'm
> afraid. Now put up, or shut up.

- -- 
Best regards,
William X Walsh <[email-masked]>
- --
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CARP will kill Webcasting!
http://www.saveinternetradio.org/

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:57:17 -0800
From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Substance over rhetoric - a constructive challenge

William X Walsh wrote:
> 
> I said read the whole thread, Sotiris.
> 
> Joanna won't deny what I said either, as I know she stands by her
> views and doesn't deny them later when it may not suit her.   She made
> it clear that the she felt that those who participate in other aspects
> of ICANN should not be joining the At Large.  The message was clear,
> and plainly spelled it out.

You are WRONG once again.  

This is what Joanna clearly stated:

"It is my suggestion to agree one ground rule. While the
DNSO continues to operate as currently structured, no
officers of the DNSO shall be eligible to stand for office
in the At Large."

That is the extent of her "hostility to inclusiveness" as
you phrased it.  Frankly, I think her concern is valid. 

- -- 
Sincerely,

Sotiris Sotiropoulos
	Hermes Network Inc.
	Toronto, Canada

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:52:08 -0600
From: Don Brown <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Substance over rhetoric - a constructive challenge

Tuesday, March 19, 2002, 8:34:02 AM, William X Walsh <[email-masked]> wrote:
WXW> Tuesday, Tuesday, March 19, 2002, 9:14:29 AM, Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote:
>> William X Walsh wrote:

WXW> Tuesday, Tuesday, March 19, 2002, 5:58:07 AM, Esther Dyson wrote:
WXW>
ED> > Okay... Joanna, would you be willing to take this on fulltime if you were
ED> > elected/selected/whatever?

WXW> I don't think Joanna is well suited for that.  Her diplomacy skills
WXW> are sorely lacking, and she has a tendency to jump to conclusions and
WXW> attack before looking at all the evidence/facts.
WXW>
WXW> She is publicly hostile to the idea of openness and inclusiveness in
WXW> the At Large already.

SS> This is an unsubstantiated charge of the sort that William
SS> X. Walsh likes to fling about without producing any
SS> evidence.  It is his mainstay tactic.

WXW> I've never made a charge I couldn't back up with evidence, Sotiris.
WXW> Now, if you want to play that game, we can go to the IDNO archives and
WXW> see many times when you have.

SS> I challenge him to
SS> produce the evidence for such a charge.

WXW> How quickly you forget when it is convenient for you.

WXW> Go read this whole thread:
WXW> http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc09/msg01186.html

I read her posts in that thread. I don't think they come close to
showing that she is publicly hostile to the idea of openness and
inclusiveness in the At Large. Did you mean a different post or thread?

WXW> [Snip]

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PGP Key ID: 04C99A55              (972) 788-2364  Fax: (972) 788-5049
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:16:39 EST
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

Thomas,

As Chair of this organization you have articulated the sentiment that the 
membership no longer has sufficient trust in the ICANN Board, and that we 
feel a need to replace a considerable number of directors.  

I share your views and seek to send a clear message to the Board.  I 
therefore motion that the General Assembly formally express its concerns 
through a vote of no confidence in the Board. 

- -- Danny Younger --
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:01:50 +0100
From: Thomas Roessler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

On 2002-03-19 12:16:39 -0500, [email-masked] wrote:

>As Chair of this organization you have articulated the sentiment 
>that the membership no longer has sufficient trust in the ICANN 
>Board, and that we feel a need to replace a considerable number of 
>directors.

This is not accurate: I have stated that _public_ distrust in ICANN 
and its board has reached a climax, and I have drawn this conclusion 
 from a publication by a number of individuals which generally enjoy 
a high reputation, and from other observations.  I have, however, 
_not_ made a statement on what "the membership" of the GA believes.

>I share your views and seek to send a clear message to the Board. 
>I therefore motion that the General Assembly formally express its 
>concerns through a vote of no confidence in the Board.

I do agree on the clear message part, but I do not at this point of 
time agree that a (declaratory) "vote of no confidence" is the best 
way to proceed.  I hope that we can find more constructive ways of 
expressing ourselves.

- -- 
Thomas Roessler                          http://log.does-not-exist.org/
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:23:08 -0800
From: Eric Dierker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

I second this motion.
Eric

[email-masked] wrote:

> Thomas,
>
> As Chair of this organization you have articulated the sentiment that the
> membership no longer has sufficient trust in the ICANN Board, and that we
> feel a need to replace a considerable number of directors.
>
> I share your views and seek to send a clear message to the Board.  I
> therefore motion that the General Assembly formally express its concerns
> through a vote of no confidence in the Board.
>
> -- Danny Younger --
> --
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:20:10 -0600
From: [email-masked] (Kristy McKee)
Subject: Re: [ga] Substance over rhetoric - a constructive challenge

Esther,

First a decision must be made concerning the duties of the position; then 
it becomes obvious what skill set is necessary to comply.  After a skill 
set and list of duties has been publicly acknowledged, resumes should be 
received and the members should vote for the person they trust and feel is 
most qualified.

~k

At 08:37 AM 3/19/2002 -0500, Esther Dyson wrote:
>Please propose an alternative candidate.
>
>Thanks!
>
>esther
<snip>

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:18:13 -0800
From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

[email-masked] wrote:
> 
> Thomas,
> 
> As Chair of this organization you have articulated the sentiment that the
> membership no longer has sufficient trust in the ICANN Board, and that we
> feel a need to replace a considerable number of directors.
> 
> I share your views and seek to send a clear message to the Board.  I
> therefore motion that the General Assembly formally express its concerns
> through a vote of no confidence in the Board.

I second this motion.

- -- 
Sincerely,

Sotiris Sotiropoulos
	Hermes Network Inc.
	Toronto, Canada

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:27:36 -0800
From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Tilting at ICANN

I probably have gone over my posting limit today, so I ask
general indulgence for one more post:

It seems the mainstream media is starting to come out of
their stupor and they're beginning to report on ICANN as
they ought:

"Karl Auerbach, elected to the Internet domain-name
authority with a mandate from the people, explains why he
is suing his own organization."

Full article:
http://salon.com/tech/feature/2002/03/19/auerbach/index.html

- -- 
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Sotiris Sotiropoulos
	Hermes Network Inc.
	Toronto, Canada

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:13:59 -0500
From: "James Love" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

I also second the motion.  Jamie

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Dierker" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

> I second this motion.
> Eric
>
> [email-masked] wrote:
>
> > Thomas,
> >
> > As Chair of this organization you have articulated the sentiment that
the
> > membership no longer has sufficient trust in the ICANN Board, and that
we
> > feel a need to replace a considerable number of directors.
> >
> > I share your views and seek to send a clear message to the Board.  I
> > therefore motion that the General Assembly formally express its concerns
> > through a vote of no confidence in the Board.
> >
> > -- Danny Younger --
> > --
> > This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> > Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> > ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> > Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
>
> --
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>
>

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:28:51 -0800
From: "William S. Lovell" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ALSC-Forum] Re: [ga] Substance over rhetoric - a  constructivechallenge

If the last sentence down below from Baptista is not enough to kick
someone off an ML, what would be?

Bill Lovell

Joe Baptista wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Esther Dyson wrote:
>
> >
> > Please propose an alternative candidate.
>
> Esther - it should be clear to you by now that no one in the
> community trusts you.  Your a two faced brown noser.  But look on the
> bright side - ya got nice tits.
>
> regards
> joe baptista
>
> http://www.dot-god.com/
>
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > esther
> >
> > At 11:06 AM 3/19/2002, Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote:
> > >I agree, a full timer is necessary.  But I don't agree
> > >with _your_ choosing of that person Mz. Dyson.  I don't
> > >think that person ought to be appointed, they should be
> > >elected.
> > >
> > >Esther Dyson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > hence, my suggestion for a *fulltime* person in charge of precisely such
> > > > (or precisely such that were missing!) coordination efforts!
> > > >
> > > > DO I hear some support here?
> > >
> > >--
> > >Sincerely,
> > >
> > >Sotiris Sotiropoulos
> > >         Hermes Network Inc.
> > >         Toronto, Canada
> > >
> > >----
> > >direct: 416.422.1034
> > >
> > >icq: 34564103
> >
> >
> > BACK TO THE FRONTIER - this year's PC FORUM with
> > Craig Barrett, Rick Belluzzo, Eric Schmidt... and you!
> > www.pcforum2002.com/pcforum/speakers.cfm
> > March 24 to 26
> >
> >
> > Esther Dyson                  Always make new mistakes!
> > chairman, EDventure Holdings
> > writer, Release 3.0 (on Website below)
> > [email-masked]
> > 1 (212) 924-8800    --   fax  1 (212) 924-0240
> > 104 Fifth Avenue (between 15th and 16th Streets; 20th floor)
> > New York, NY 10011 USA
> > http://www.edventure.com
> >
> >
> >
>
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:28:48 -0800
From: Mike Roberts <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

At 7:01 PM +0100 3/19/02, Thomas Roessler wrote:
>I do agree on the clear message part, but I do not at this point of 
>time agree that a (declaratory) "vote of no confidence" is the best 
>way to proceed.  I hope that we can find more constructive ways of 
>expressing ourselves.

Yes, indeed.  One of the first tenets of management is, "tell me your 
solutions, not your problems."

The people and organizations who have the political power to alter 
the course of ICANN's future are all too familiar with the litany of 
problems, real and imagined.  What they want to know is what 
constructive solutions the ICANN community has to offer.  Firing the 
Board is not among them.

- - M.
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:35:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

But firing the management might be?

On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Mike Roberts wrote:

[...]
> 
> The people and organizations who have the political power to alter 
> the course of ICANN's future are all too familiar with the litany of 
> problems, real and imagined.  What they want to know is what 
> constructive solutions the ICANN community has to offer.  Firing the 
> Board is not among them.
> 

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U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA
+1 (305) 284-4285  |  +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)  |  http://www.law.tm
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:24:34 GMT
From: David Farrar <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

Mike Roberts wrote:
> At 7:01 PM +0100 3/19/02, Thomas Roessler wrote:
> >I do agree on the clear message part, but I do not at this point of 
> >time agree that a (declaratory) "vote of no confidence" is the best 
> >way to proceed.  I hope that we can find more constructive ways of 
> >expressing ourselves.
> 
> Yes, indeed.  One of the first tenets of management is, "tell me your 
> solutions, not your problems."
> 
> The people and organizations who have the political power to alter 
> the course of ICANN's future are all too familiar with the litany of 
> problems, real and imagined.  What they want to know is what 
> constructive solutions the ICANN community has to offer.  Firing the 
> Board is not among them.

I regrettably disagree.  ICANN is a mess and the buck stops with the Board.

I have tried to be what I perceive as a "moderate" voice.  Obviously unhappy 
with the status quo but also trying to work constructively within the system.  
Have pledged money and time to the at large.  Have worked as part of the 
Structure Taskforce.  Have encouraged my local ccTLD to keep attending and 
funding ICANN.  Have tried to be constructive on issues etc.

However I no longer believe ICANN is redeemable.  For years I have said ICANN 
is not perfect but we need some central co-ordinating body and ICANN is the 
only game in town.  This is no longer the case.  I am detecting a seismic shift 
in the internet landscape which equates to the internet community no longer has 
confidence in ICANN either present or future.

Therefore my constructive solution is to remove the naming and addressing 
authority from ICANN and learn from the mistakes of ICANN to set up a sucessor 
body or bodies.  

DPF

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:34:22 +0100
From: Thomas Roessler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

On 2002-03-19 12:28:48 -0800, Mike Roberts wrote:

>Yes, indeed.  One of the first tenets of management is, "tell me 
>your solutions, not your problems."

Still, stating the problem the right way is, sometimes, half of the 
solution.  I'll give it a try.

Let's, for a moment, assume that - whatever structure one may come 
up with for policy-making (which is interesting by itself) - we'll 
ultimately have a board which can, in reality, ignore input from the 
policy-making process if it believes that this is the best thing for 
the corporation.

How can such a board be controlled?  What kind of feed-back can be 
provided to such a board?  There is no market which can operate as a 
feed-back channel, like in the case of a normal business.  Thus, 
external feed-back channels have to be added.  The single largest 
problem with the Lynn proposal is that it _eliminates_ such 
channels; even more so if even the governmental appointees have to 
go through the NomComm filter.  All feed-back channels which are 
left over can be ignored by the board.

The problem we should try to address is what such channels should 
look like: How can the public provide feed-back to ICANN which (1) 
can't be ignored (like an ombudsman who gives non-binding 
recommendations), and (2) does not have a possible breakdown of 
Internet stability as its side-effect (like the introduction of 
competing roots on the sides of AOL and Microsoft)?

- -- 
Thomas Roessler                          http://log.does-not-exist.org/
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:50:35 EST
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] Re:  Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

Mike,

You have indicated that firing the Board is not an option.  Wake up to the 
fact that if the Board does not replace itself, a successor agency can be 
expected.  I am sure that we can propose a reasonable "evolutionary" 
construct with appropriate checks and balances that will effectively replace 
most members of the current Board.   Will you work with us on this, or do you 
intend to support a self-perpetuating clique accountable to no one?
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:05:52 -0600
From: [email-masked] (Kristy McKee)
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

I agree with a lot of what's being said and feel the least that should 
happen is:

every person who works with or for ICANN and does not have the job or 
position as a result of public or proper election should be replaced within 
the next year

and

every person who works with or for ICANN and does have the job or position 
as a result of public or proper election should retain their position until 
they have been replaced according to schedule by public or proper 
election.  A person may be re-elected and permitted to continue in their role.

- - along these lines.

:)

~k

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:52:24 +0100
From: Jefsey Morfin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Motion for a vote of no confidence in the Board

I think that unfortunately you are right.
Seconded. Jefsey

On 18:16 19/03/02, [email-masked] said:
>Thomas,
>As Chair of this organization you have articulated the sentiment that the
>membership no longer has sufficient trust in the ICANN Board, and that we
>feel a need to replace a considerable number of directors.
>
>I share your views and seek to send a clear message to the Board.  I
>therefore motion that the General Assembly formally express its concerns
>through a vote of no confidence in the Board.
>
>-- Danny Younger --

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