Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #24
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST            Monday, March 20 2000            Volume 01 : Number 024

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 23:24:58 +0100 (MET)
From: "Roberto Gaetano" <[email-masked]>
Subject: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD, Brussels, 28 March

Any further comments on .eu?

Roberto

>Dear Names Council of the DNSO,
>
>I write to request you assistance in passing the following invitation 
to 
>those within your constituencies who may have an interest in the 
creation 
>of a .EU TLD.
>
>In an attempt to reach the wider Internet community, this notice will 
be 
>posted to a number of mailing lists.  Apologies to those who subscribe 
to 
>more than one of those lists for any multiple postings.
>
>
>Fay Howard
>CENTR General Manager
>
>
>Invitation to attend an open Meeting on the Creation of .EU Top Level 
Domain
>Brussels, 28 March 2000.
>
>Introduction
>
>On 2 February 2000, the European Commission published a Working Paper 
on 
>the creation of a .EU Top Level Domain for public comment. CENTR, the 
>Council of European National Top Level Domains formed a working group 
to 
>consider the Commission's Working Paper. A press release followed 
>indicating CENTR's intention to initiate wide consultation before 
>responding to the Commission. In the course of these consultations, it 

>became clear that a public meeting would enable CENTR members and other
 
>interested groups to benefit from expert opinion and take input from 
all 
>areas of the European Internet Community.
>
>CENTR will therefore host an open meeting in Brussels on  Tuesday, 28 
March 
>2000 at which interested parties may attend and give their views. 
>Representatives of the European Commission, ICANN board and staff and 
all 
>constituencies of the DNSO will be invited as well as legal and 
business 
>experts in relevant fields.
>Apologies for the short notice but we feel it is important to be able 
to 
>give the Commission our report as quickly as possible.
>
>With the benefit of input from the open meeting, CENTR proposes to 
address 
>the six questions raised in the Commission working Paper and give 
>additional input to the Commission. The report will be published before
 31 
>March 2000.
>The agenda of the meeting will focus on some fundamental issues 
including 
>the following:
>
>Issues for the agenda:
>
>1. The consequences of creating .EU from the perspective of the 
Internet 
>end user, and the demand for such Domain Names throughout Europe
>
>- Business initiatives and e-commerce developments
>- Addressing consumer protection and consumer confusion
>- Preventing the need for defensive registrations by current Domain 
name 
>holders
>
>2. The legal implications of creating .EU
>
>- Competition issues
>- law governing registration agreements with .eu TLD registrants and 
the 
>jurisdiction of courts in member states;
>- domain name dispute avoidance and online dispute resolution,
>- Domain Name warehousing and cybersquatting issues
>
>3. The registration policies appropriate to such a new Top Level Domain

>
>- Neutral second level domains
>- Appropriate registrants (EU institutions only, businesses in the EU, 

>private
>    persons...)
>- Consequence of EU naming policies on ccTLD registries in the 15 
member
>    states
>
>4.The role of the national Internet communities in the process of 
>determining the  creation of such a new TLD.
>
>- Clarification of the consultation and decision making process within 
the EU
>- Clarification of the consultation and decision making process within 
ICANN
>- Next Steps
>
>Meeting Information:
>
>There is no charge for attendance.
>The meeting will commence at 9.30 and the open session will finish at 
16.00 
>after which a closed session will take place to review input and draft 
a 
>report.
>Lunch will be provided.
>
>Venue:
>
>La Maison de l'Europe a la Bibliotheque Solvay
>137 Rue Belliard
>1040 Brussels
>
>Further information:
>
>For further information about the meeting or CENTR :
>Email:[email-masked]
>This invitation and the agenda will be posted to the CENTR Website:
>URL: http://www.centr.org
>
>Registration
>
>In order to assess numbers for catering and provision of papers, you 
are 
>requested to complete the registration form below and return to the 
CENTR 
>Secretariat.
>
>***************Registration form******************
>
>To CENTR Secretariat <[email-masked]>
>
>Name(s):
>
>Organisation:
>
>Country:
>
>E-mail Address:
>
>***********************************************************************
*****
>CENTR
>Council of European National Top level domain Registries
>
>Sandford Gate
>Sandy Lane West
>Oxford OX 4 5LB
>
>Tel: +44 (0)1865 332400
>Fax: +44 (0)1865 332401
>
>email <[email-masked]>
>URL: http://www.centr.org
>
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>
>
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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:36:27 -0800 (PST)
From: "William X. Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

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On 19-Mar-2000 Roberto Gaetano wrote:
> Any further comments on .eu?
> 
> Roberto

>>Dear Names Council of the DNSO,
>>
>>I write to request you assistance in passing the following invitation 
> to 
>>those within your constituencies who may have an interest in the 
> creation 
>>of a .EU TLD.

Are not applications for new Top Level Domains premature until a process exists
under which applications can be accepted and processed?  Why should the group
wanting to introduce .EU have any standing ahead of any other proposals and
applications for new Top Level Domain registries?

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http://userfriendly.com/
Fax: 877-860-5412 or +1-559-851-9192
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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 17:15:42 -0800
From: Simon Higgs <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

At 03:36 PM 3/19/00 -0800, William X. Walsh wrote:

>On 19-Mar-2000 Roberto Gaetano wrote:
> > Any further comments on .eu?
> >
> > Roberto
>
> >>Dear Names Council of the DNSO,
> >>
> >>I write to request you assistance in passing the following invitation
> > to
> >>those within your constituencies who may have an interest in the
> > creation
> >>of a .EU TLD.
>
>Are not applications for new Top Level Domains premature until a process 
>exists
>under which applications can be accepted and processed?  Why should the group
>wanting to introduce .EU have any standing ahead of any other proposals and
>applications for new Top Level Domain registries?

Especially when there has always been a published process, and IANA have 
acknowledged receipt of the earliest applications. See RFC1591. Section 
3.  The Administration of Delegated Domains

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1591.txt

"The IANA's File of iTLD Requests" (the original list of non-ccTLD 
applications) was published by Jon Postel on behalf of IANA here on Dec 5th 
1996:

http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/00990.html

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Simon

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 17:19:56 -0800 (PST)
From: "William X. Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

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On 20-Mar-2000 Simon Higgs wrote:
> Especially when there has always been a published process, and IANA have 
> acknowledged receipt of the earliest applications. See RFC1591. Section 
> 3.  The Administration of Delegated Domains

IANA lacked the authority to add new gTLDs and hence any such applications are
not valid.  The NSF made it very clear that IANA did not have the authority to
grant or create new Top level domains.  The IANA assumed it had that authority
(hoped?) but their "process" is no better than Joe Baptista saying you can
create a new TLD simply by emailing him an "application" since they lacked the
proper authority to engage in that activity.

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:00:03 -0800
From: Simon Higgs <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

At 05:19 PM 3/19/00 -0800, William X. Walsh wrote:

You'll shoot yourself in the foot arguing against yourself. :-)

IANA had the authority to introduce new TLDs into the root, as evidenced by 
the introduction of ccTLDs during the same time period. This was part of 
their NSF contract. At the time, IANA was in the process of defining a new 
process (which is now ICANN) to bring competition to NSI, and so new iTLD 
applications were solicited during 1995/1996 and accepted by IANA under the 
RFC1591 guidelines. The domain name template that InterNIC/NSI used in 
those days had the provision for accepting *ALL* TLDs, and this was the 
vehicle specified by IANA. These are the historical facts, though there are 
a number of reasons why these applications have not been processed. This 
supports your argument to the .EU folks.

Unfortunately you equate Joe Baptista with IANA which is a completely 
nonsensical thing to do, and the reference is a red herring. Anyone can 
create a TLD that will resolve on their own DNS servers. Many private 
companies (including Sun) do this behind their firewalls for their Intranet 
as part of their security posture (I've done it for a DoD command). If Joe 
wants to collect TLDs for use on his servers why not let him? If other 
folks want to query his servers, why should you interfere? DNS is supposed 
to be a democracy with the end-user having the vote.

>On 20-Mar-2000 Simon Higgs wrote:
> > Especially when there has always been a published process, and IANA have
> > acknowledged receipt of the earliest applications. See RFC1591. Section
> > 3.  The Administration of Delegated Domains
>
>IANA lacked the authority to add new gTLDs and hence any such applications are
>not valid.  The NSF made it very clear that IANA did not have the authority to
>grant or create new Top level domains.  The IANA assumed it had that authority
>(hoped?) but their "process" is no better than Joe Baptista saying you can
>create a new TLD simply by emailing him an "application" since they lacked the
>proper authority to engage in that activity.

Best Regards,

Simon

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 23:00:58 -0400
From: "Peter de Blanc" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD, Brussels, 28 March

Any consideration of .EU must take into account the possibilities of:

.AP  for Asia Pacific

.AF (or some letters) for Africa, or Pan-African Union

.C?  for the CariCom Caribbean Community,

.l? for the Latin Americans

.N? for NAFTA- the North American Free Trade Accociation

and GOD only knows how many other trade and economic treaty associations.

Peter de Blanc
.VI admin

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Roberto
Gaetano
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 6:25 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD,
Brussels, 28 March

Any further comments on .eu?

Roberto

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:22:52 -0800
From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

At 07:00 PM 3/19/00 -0800, Simon Higgs wrote:
>At 05:19 PM 3/19/00 -0800, William X. Walsh wrote:
>
>You'll shoot yourself in the foot arguing against yourself. :-)
>
>IANA had the authority to introduce new TLDs into the root, as evidenced 
>by the introduction of ccTLDs during the same time period. This was part 
>of their NSF contract. At the time, IANA was

Which IANA contract with NSF was that?

d/

=-=-=-=-=
Dave Crocker  <[email-masked]>
Brandenburg Consulting  <www.brandenburg.com>
Tel: +1.408.246.8253,  Fax: +1.408.273.6464
675 Spruce Drive,  Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:24:11 -0600
From: Andy Gardner <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD, Brussels, 28 March

>Any consideration of .EU must take into account the possibilities of:
>
>.AP  for Asia Pacific
>
>.AF (or some letters) for Africa, or Pan-African Union
>
>.C?  for the CariCom Caribbean Community,
>
>.l? for the Latin Americans
>
>.N? for NAFTA- the North American Free Trade Accociation
>
>and GOD only knows how many other trade and economic treaty associations.

Application for root domain:

.on   for Oceania Region Internet Association (ORIA) on behalf of the 
Communities of Oceania.

I am technical and admin contact for the Oceania Region Internet Association.

Regards,

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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:45:56 -0800 (PST)
From: "William X. Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

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On 20-Mar-2000 Simon Higgs wrote:
> IANA had the authority to introduce new TLDs into the root, as evidenced by 
> the introduction of ccTLDs during the same time period. This was part of 
> their NSF contract.

NSF was explicit on this point.  IANA had authority to introduce the ISO-3166
ccTLDs, but that authority did not extend to gTLDs, and the NSF made this clear
to NSI, Simon.

As such, any "authority" granted by IANA was non-existant and invalid, just
like Joe Baptista's authority.

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:51:49 -0800
From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

You made reference to a contract: "This was part of their NSF contract."

I simply asked you for details about it.

Since you referred to it, I assume you know something about it.

At 07:43 PM 3/19/00 -0800, Simon Higgs wrote:
>At 07:22 PM 3/19/00 -0800, Dave Crocker wrote:
>>At 07:00 PM 3/19/00 -0800, Simon Higgs wrote:
>>>At 05:19 PM 3/19/00 -0800, William X. Walsh wrote:
>>>IANA had the authority to introduce new TLDs into the root, as evidenced 
>>>by the introduction of ccTLDs during the same time period. This was part 
>>>of their NSF contract. At the time, IANA was
>>Which IANA contract with NSF was that?
>Are you saying IANA didn't have the authority to introduce all those 
>ccTLDs into the root?

d/

=-=-=-=-=
Dave Crocker  <[email-masked]>
Brandenburg Consulting  <www.brandenburg.com>
Tel: +1.408.246.8253,  Fax: +1.408.273.6464
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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:55:21 -0500
From: "Ben Edelman" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] ICANN Web Site Search Now Available

In the past weeks, I've received a few requests for searching of the ICANN
and Berkman Center ICANN-Archive web sites.  The Berkman Center has
therefore implemented a joint search interface indexing both our own
ICANN-related content (everything within
<http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/icann>) and ICANN's entire web site.

The search interface is at <http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/icann/search>.
Suggestions for improvement are solicited.

Ben Edelman
Berkman Center for Internet and Society
Harvard Law School

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:01:57 -0800
From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

At 07:45 PM 3/19/00 -0800, William X. Walsh wrote:
>NSF was explicit on this point.  IANA had authority to introduce the ISO-3166
>ccTLDs, but that authority did not extend to gTLDs, and the NSF made this 
>clear
>to NSI, Simon.

Please supply the source text which states this.

It does not match what I remember reading, but since you are certain, you 
presumably have access to the text at issue.

d/

=-=-=-=-=
Dave Crocker  <[email-masked]>
Brandenburg Consulting  <www.brandenburg.com>
Tel: +1.408.246.8253,  Fax: +1.408.273.6464
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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:14:34 -0800
From: Simon Higgs <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

At 07:45 PM 3/19/00 -0800, William X. Walsh wrote:

> > IANA had the authority to introduce new TLDs into the root, as 
> evidenced by
> > the introduction of ccTLDs during the same time period. This was part of
> > their NSF contract.
>
>NSF was explicit on this point.  IANA had authority to introduce the ISO-3166
>ccTLDs, but that authority did not extend to gTLDs, and the NSF made this 
>clear
>to NSI, Simon.

This is hindsight speaking. None of this was clear when IANA solicited or 
received the applications. This only explains why the applications were not 
processed. It *DOES NOT* invalidate the application submission process, nor 
does it invalidate the applications.

If you can show me documentation where these applications have been legally 
invalidated, I'd like to see it. And I mean invalidated by something from 
at least a US Federal Court, Dept. Of Commerce, NSF contract, Federal 
Register, etc.

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:44:34 -0800 (PST)
From: "William X. Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

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On 20-Mar-2000 Dave Crocker wrote:
>>>Which IANA contract with NSF was that?
>>Are you saying IANA didn't have the authority to introduce all those 
>>ccTLDs into the root?

They had the authority ONLY to enter ccTLDs.  That was the end and limit to
their authority.  Without the explicit permission of the NSF they could not do
anything more than that.   New gTLDs were not within IANA's realm of authority,
though they certainly tried to make it that way by sheer will alone, and hoped
that they wouldn't meet with the opposition they did when they tried to assert
an authority they didn't have.

Can you please point me to a specific document where the NSF gave IANA the
authority to approve new gTLDs?   Not an RFC where IANA gave themselves the
authority, Simon, but a real document or contract where IANA was given that
authority.

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:00:17 -0800 (PST)
From: "William X. Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

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On 20-Mar-2000 Simon Higgs wrote:
> This is hindsight speaking. None of this was clear when IANA solicited or 
> received the applications. This only explains why the applications were not 
> processed. It *DOES NOT* invalidate the application submission process, nor 
> does it invalidate the applications.

It most certainly does.   The submission process was under an unsanctioned, and
not authorized process.  Just because the applicants believed the process was
valid (and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here) doesn't mean that the
applications should have any standing in any future process.  
 
> If you can show me documentation where these applications have been legally 
> invalidated, I'd like to see it. And I mean invalidated by something from 
> at least a US Federal Court, Dept. Of Commerce, NSF contract, Federal 
> Register, etc.

There is no need to have a legal invalidation of a process that was not a part
of any governemnt process, and indeed was carried out without any authorization
or authority except that which IANA perceived and/or desired to have.

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:28:04 -0800
From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD

At 08:44 PM 3/19/00 -0800, William X. Walsh wrote:
>Can you please point me to a specific document where the NSF gave IANA the
>authority to approve new gTLDs?

IANA made policy and created TLDs from the inception of the DNS.  No one 
else did.  And certainly they were doing it long before NSF was a factor in 
Internet operations.

d/

=-=-=-=-=
Dave Crocker  <[email-masked]>
Brandenburg Consulting  <www.brandenburg.com>
Tel: +1.408.246.8253,  Fax: +1.408.273.6464
675 Spruce Drive,  Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 100 00:07:58 -0400 (AST)
From: John Charles Broomfield <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD, Brussels, 28 March

Hi Peter,
	"EU" is lined up for inclusion in ISO-3166 (where all ccTLDs find
their origins). If any of your examples or GOd knows how many other trade
and economic treaty associations have an entry in ISO-3166, then by all
means proceed. AFAIK, none of your examples are seeking inclusion in
ISO-3166.
Yours, John Broomfield.

> Any consideration of .EU must take into account the possibilities of:
> 
> .AP  for Asia Pacific
> .AF (or some letters) for Africa, or Pan-African Union
> .C?  for the CariCom Caribbean Community,
> .l? for the Latin Americans
> .N? for NAFTA- the North American Free Trade Accociation
> 
> and GOD only knows how many other trade and economic treaty associations.
> 
> Peter de Blanc
> .VI admin
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Roberto
> Gaetano
> Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 6:25 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD,
> Brussels, 28 March
> 
> 
> Any further comments on .eu?
> 
> Roberto
> 
> 
> 
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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 100 00:09:13 -0400 (AST)
From: John Charles Broomfield <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU TLD,

Hi Andrew,
	Piece of advice. Start by talking to the ISO-3166 maintainence
agency and state your case with them. Until you get included in ISO-3166
it's all just hot air.

Yours, John Broomfield.

> >Any consideration of .EU must take into account the possibilities of:
> >
> >.AP  for Asia Pacific
> >
> >.AF (or some letters) for Africa, or Pan-African Union
> >
> >.C?  for the CariCom Caribbean Community,
> >
> >.l? for the Latin Americans
> >
> >.N? for NAFTA- the North American Free Trade Accociation
> >
> >and GOD only knows how many other trade and economic treaty associations.
> 
> Application for root domain:
> 
> .on   for Oceania Region Internet Association (ORIA) on behalf of the 
> Communities of Oceania.
> 
> 
> I am technical and admin contact for the Oceania Region Internet Association.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -- 
> Andrew P. Gardner
> 
> Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
> --
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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 08:04:51 +0100
From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Older registrations

At 17:15 19.03.00 -0800, Simon Higgs wrote:
>"The IANA's File of iTLD Requests" (the original list of non-ccTLD 
>applications) was published by Jon Postel on behalf of IANA here on Dec 
>5th 1996:
>
>http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/00990.html

Thank you for the reference.
especially interesting was the heading saying

>In most cases if a reply was sent at all it said something like:
>
>         While there is much discussion of a process for establishing
>         new registries and new top level domains taking place, no
>         conclusions have been reached as yet.
>
>         Request sent to the IANA for a new top level domain will be
>         filed with the many other requests.  There is some considerable
>         possibility that this particular request will not be granted
>         (in simple words -- don't plan on it).

and the fact that Chris Ambler's ".WEB" request was #3 in the list
for that particular TLD.....

                       Harald

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[email-masked]

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 03:14:40 -0500 (EST)
From: "!Dr. Joe Baptista" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU  TLD (fwd)

well - let see if it works.

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:55:34 +0100
From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
To: !Dr. Joe Baptista <[email-masked]>
Cc: Simon Higgs <[email-masked]>, Roberto Gaetano <[email-masked]>,
     [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: RE: About .eu - Was: Re: [ga] Meeting on the creation of .EU  TLD

At 00:48 20.03.00 -0500, you wrote:
>Harald:
>
>Can you explain to me what this horseshit is all about?
>
>I am still unable to post to the ga list.  Sure I can post to the ga-full,
>but then anyone can.  I have been unable to post to the ga-rules and I'm
>holding you responsible for that.

I haven't seen a single bounced message to the GA list from you that did 
not copy at least one other mailing list.
These postings were filtered according to the "no crossposting" rule, which 
has been in effect roughly forever, and which you are quite aware of.

The message I am replying to now was copied the domain-policy list.
I'm breaking my tradition of not replying to lists I am not a member of
in case anyone is unaware of this; I won't continue the practice.

>As you can see, your assistant Mr. Walsh is now slimming me again in the
>ga-rules and being unable to post - i can't defend myself.

Sure you can, but not while copying domain-policy.

>When Jeff called you people in control of the GA horseshitter - I think he
>was being rather kind.

No comment.

                     Harald

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[email-masked]

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End of GA-DIGEST V1 #24
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