Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #16
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST           Thursday, March 2 2000           Volume 01 : Number 016

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:12:57 -0800
From: "'Kent Crispin'" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] there are more cost factors..

On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 09:32:03PM -0400, Peter de Blanc wrote:
> We (COBEX INternet ISP) provide the name service free if the client is doing
> web hosting or web advertising with us. Otherwise, we charge $ 5.00 US a
> month.
> 
> Our commercial web hosting rates start at $ 19.95 US a month (with name
> service).

Songbird's rates for that service start at $10/month.  Just thought you
would like to know :-)

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Kent Crispin                               "Do good, and you'll be
[email-masked]                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:22:10 -0800 (PST)
From: "William X. Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] there are more cost factors..

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Marilyn,

There are places to get DNS service for a domain name for free, as well as
other services for free.  With domain name registration as low as $10/yr for
com/net/org domains, there are a lot of people who have previously not
registered domains who now can, and use various existing free services to get
use out of their new low cost com/net/org domains.

I cannot post to the GA list currently because I, correctly, identified Joe
Baptista as a loon, but I wanted to post this for your edification anyway.

On 01-Mar-2000 Cade,Marilyn S - LGA wrote:
> I haven't seen any acknowledgement that there is more to using a domain name
> than registering it; someone has to host it, etc.  Where is that little cost
> item discussed?  Clearly, ISPs in the U.S. do that often without a separate
> charge, but that isn't always the case.
> 
> Marilyn
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kent Crispin [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:41 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [ga] Who has standing
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:47:52AM +1300, Joop Teernstra wrote:
>> >
>> Nii is absolutely right.
> 
> Indeed he is.
> 
>> There are many people without computers who participate on the Net.  They
>> have the right to be at large members in ICANN.
>> 
>> But these are largely not the people who register Domains or  have
>> otherwise a stake in the DNS to justify their membership of the DNSO GA.
> 
> People who don't have domain names clearly have a stake in the DNS,
> because they will get domain names in the future.  For example, policies
> that led to domain names costing hundreds of dollars each have vastly
> different consequences than policies that lead to domain names costing a
> dollar.  By your reasoning developing countries that currently have very
> few domain names don't have any stake in the DNS, and can therefore be
> ignored.  That is patently false. 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin                               "Do good, and you'll be
> [email-masked]                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
> --
> This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:31:45 -0500
From: "Cade,Marilyn S - LGA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] there are more cost factors..

Thanks, William. I know that the costs vary greatly, but I wanted to be sure
that we didn't miss noting it. I've seen the cost dropping to what appears
to be zero, when something else subsidizes it, and I am not quarelling with
that business model.  But thanks for your very nice clarification!

- -----Original Message-----
From: William X. Walsh [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 9:22 PM
To: Cade,Marilyn S - LGA
Cc: Kent Crispin; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [ga] there are more cost factors..

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Marilyn,

There are places to get DNS service for a domain name for free, as well as
other services for free.  With domain name registration as low as $10/yr for
com/net/org domains, there are a lot of people who have previously not
registered domains who now can, and use various existing free services to
get
use out of their new low cost com/net/org domains.

I cannot post to the GA list currently because I, correctly, identified Joe
Baptista as a loon, but I wanted to post this for your edification anyway.

On 01-Mar-2000 Cade,Marilyn S - LGA wrote:
> I haven't seen any acknowledgement that there is more to using a domain
name
> than registering it; someone has to host it, etc.  Where is that little
cost
> item discussed?  Clearly, ISPs in the U.S. do that often without a
separate
> charge, but that isn't always the case.
> 
> Marilyn
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kent Crispin [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:41 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [ga] Who has standing
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:47:52AM +1300, Joop Teernstra wrote:
>> >
>> Nii is absolutely right.
> 
> Indeed he is.
> 
>> There are many people without computers who participate on the Net.  They
>> have the right to be at large members in ICANN.
>> 
>> But these are largely not the people who register Domains or  have
>> otherwise a stake in the DNS to justify their membership of the DNSO GA.
> 
> People who don't have domain names clearly have a stake in the DNS,
> because they will get domain names in the future.  For example, policies
> that led to domain names costing hundreds of dollars each have vastly
> different consequences than policies that lead to domain names costing a
> dollar.  By your reasoning developing countries that currently have very
> few domain names don't have any stake in the DNS, and can therefore be
> ignored.  That is patently false. 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin                               "Do good, and you'll be
> [email-masked]                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
> --
> This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:45:32 -0800
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Harald, I thought this problem was going to be fixed? To:Re: [ga] there are more cost factors..

Harald and all Assembly members,

  I thought you said earlier today that this little problem was going to be
fixed with WXW's ghost address?  Well?

  In that it has not, and WXW has again violated the illegitimate rules
again.  I protest.

William X. Walsh wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Marilyn,
>
> There are places to get DNS service for a domain name for free, as well as
> other services for free.  With domain name registration as low as $10/yr for
> com/net/org domains, there are a lot of people who have previously not
> registered domains who now can, and use various existing free services to get
> use out of their new low cost com/net/org domains.
>
> I cannot post to the GA list currently because I, correctly, identified Joe
> Baptista as a loon, but I wanted to post this for your edification anyway.
>
> On 01-Mar-2000 Cade,Marilyn S - LGA wrote:
> > I haven't seen any acknowledgement that there is more to using a domain name
> > than registering it; someone has to host it, etc.  Where is that little cost
> > item discussed?  Clearly, ISPs in the U.S. do that often without a separate
> > charge, but that isn't always the case.
> >
> > Marilyn
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kent Crispin [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:41 PM
> > To: [email-masked]
> > Subject: [ga] Who has standing
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:47:52AM +1300, Joop Teernstra wrote:
> >> >
> >> Nii is absolutely right.
> >
> > Indeed he is.
> >
> >> There are many people without computers who participate on the Net.  They
> >> have the right to be at large members in ICANN.
> >>
> >> But these are largely not the people who register Domains or  have
> >> otherwise a stake in the DNS to justify their membership of the DNSO GA.
> >
> > People who don't have domain names clearly have a stake in the DNS,
> > because they will get domain names in the future.  For example, policies
> > that led to domain names costing hundreds of dollars each have vastly
> > different consequences than policies that lead to domain names costing a
> > dollar.  By your reasoning developing countries that currently have very
> > few domain names don't have any stake in the DNS, and can therefore be
> > ignored.  That is patently false.
> >
> > --
> > Kent Crispin                               "Do good, and you'll be
> > [email-masked]                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
> > --
> > This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
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>
> - --
> William X. Walsh <[email-masked]>
> http://userfriendly.com/
> Fax: 877-860-5412 or +1-559-851-9192
> GPG/PGP Key at http://userfriendly.com/wwalsh.gpg
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Regards,

- --
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Spokesman INEGroup (Over 95k members strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-447-1894
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 15:20:17 +1300
From: Joop Teernstra <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Who has standing

At 15:41 29/02/00 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:

>People who don't have domain names clearly have a stake in the DNS,
>because they will get domain names in the future.  For example, policies
>that led to domain names costing hundreds of dollars each have vastly
>different consequences than policies that lead to domain names costing a
>dollar. 

True, but that is not what the DNSO was created for.

> By your reasoning developing countries that currently have very
>few domain names don't have any stake in the DNS, and can therefore be
>ignored.  That is patently false. 
>

My reasoning concerned individuals, not countries.
Individuals without computers, that Nii talked about.

- --Joop Teernstra LL.M.--  , founder  of
the Cyberspace Association,
the constituency for Individual Domain Name Owners
http://www.idno.org  (or direct:) 
http://www.democracy.org.nz/idno/

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:52:04 -0800
From: Kent Crispin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Who has standing

On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 03:20:17PM +1300, Joop Teernstra wrote:
> At 15:41 29/02/00 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >People who don't have domain names clearly have a stake in the DNS,
> >because they will get domain names in the future.  For example, policies
> >that led to domain names costing hundreds of dollars each have vastly
> >different consequences than policies that lead to domain names costing a
> >dollar. 
> 
> True, but that is not what the DNSO was created for.

Dealing with domain name policy is precisely what the DNSO was created 
for.  Domain name policy affects people -- including individuals -- who 
don't have domain names.  Housing policy affects people who don't 
currently have houses -- maybe *especially* people who don't have 
houses... 

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Kent Crispin                               "Do good, and you'll be
[email-masked]                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 10:16:26 +0100
From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Proposal: WWW / slashdot

At 11:47 01.03.00 +1300, Joop Teernstra wrote:

>But these are largely not the people who register Domains or  have
>otherwise a stake in the DNS to justify their membership of the DNSO GA.

A stake in the DNS has never been considered a requirement for DNSO GA 
membership, AFAIK.

                    Harald

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[email-masked]

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:33:02 +0100 (MET)
From: Per Koelle <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Who has standing

On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:47:52AM +1300, Joop Teernstra wrote:
> > >
> > Nii is absolutely right.
> 
> Indeed he is.

Right.

> 
> > There are many people without computers who participate on the Net.  They
> > have the right to be at large members in ICANN.
> > 
> > But these are largely not the people who register Domains or  have
> > otherwise a stake in the DNS to justify their membership of the DNSO GA.
> 
> People who don't have domain names clearly have a stake in the DNS,
> because they will get domain names in the future.  For example, policies
> that led to domain names costing hundreds of dollars each have vastly
> different consequences than policies that lead to domain names costing a
> dollar.  By your reasoning developing countries that currently have very
> few domain names don't have any stake in the DNS, and can therefore be
> ignored.  That is patently false. 

No its not.
You say it yourself "developing countries" have a say in DNSO
by the very fact, that they have a ccTLD. But the individuals
should have their say via the At Large membership. Please
remember, that they will have NINE seats on the board. That
is definately enough !

Regards
Per

> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin                               "Do good, and you'll be
> [email-masked]                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
> --

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 23:42:40 +1300
From: Joop Teernstra <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Proposal: WWW / slashdot

At 10:16 1/03/00 +0100, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:
>At 11:47 01.03.00 +1300, Joop Teernstra wrote:
>
>>But these are largely not the people who register Domains or  have
>>otherwise a stake in the DNS to justify their membership of the DNSO GA.
>
>A stake in the DNS has never been considered a requirement for DNSO GA 
>membership, AFAIK.
>

True.
 But in reality it is really the stakeholders in the DNS (individuals
associated with the seven recognized constituencies and unrecognized
stakeholder constituencies) that populate this GA.
All are people who have or want representation on the Names Council.

- --Joop Teernstra LL.M.--  , founder  of
the Cyberspace Association,
the constituency for Individual Domain Name Owners
http://www.idno.org  (or direct:) 
http://www.democracy.org.nz/idno/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:52:57 -0000 
From: Jean-Michel Becar <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Who has standing

Kent and Nii,

Please don't say that I said that developing countries doesn't have a stake
in the DNS story , I just said that everybody who is aware of the DNSO and
ICANN has at least 20 dollars in pocket to participate!!! That's something
different. Because to be aware of ICANN you need at least a computer and a
modem, isn't it?

About the At Large : it costs nothing so no problem for everybody to
participate. You still need a computer and a modem so what about people not
having that materiel?????? and they have a stake because those are the
future user and buyer of domain names !!!!!!

But if we need resources to build a DNSO GA membership structure, MAY BE we
will need some money and I think 20$ is reasonable and we can also study the
case of people not having the money for example people coming from
developing countries but IMHO I don't think that people who don't have 20$
really care about the DNSO -- that's different of they don't have a stake --
because those people are first looking for food, water, or how to make their
lands productive before to go to buy a computer and a modem !!!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kent Crispin [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 12:41 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] Who has standing

On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:47:52AM +1300, Joop Teernstra wrote:
> >
> Nii is absolutely right.

Indeed he is.

> There are many people without computers who participate on the Net.  They
> have the right to be at large members in ICANN.
> 
> But these are largely not the people who register Domains or  have
> otherwise a stake in the DNS to justify their membership of the DNSO GA.

People who don't have domain names clearly have a stake in the DNS,
because they will get domain names in the future.  For example, policies
that led to domain names costing hundreds of dollars each have vastly
different consequences than policies that lead to domain names costing a
dollar.  By your reasoning developing countries that currently have very
few domain names don't have any stake in the DNS, and can therefore be
ignored.  That is patently false. 

- -- 
Kent Crispin                               "Do good, and you'll be
[email-masked]                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:18:50 -0000
From: "Dr. Nii Quaynor" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Who has standing

> Please don't say that I said that developing countries doesn't have a
stake
> in the DNS story , I just said that everybody who is aware of the DNSO and
> ICANN has at least 20 dollars in pocket to participate!!! That's something
> different. Because to be aware of ICANN you need at least a computer and a
> modem, isn't it?
>

1. we are only exchanging ideas and no one is saying anyone said.
2. there exist several people in my region who have heard of ICANN and
concerned about its impact especially future but cannot afford $20!? hence
the thought above is unacceptable.

> About the At Large : it costs nothing so no problem for everybody to
> participate. You still need a computer and a modem so what about people
not
> having that materiel?????? and they have a stake because those are the
> future user and buyer of domain names !!!!!!
>

this is also true of the GA so where is the new idea here? we want both GA
and at-large to be conscious of this large community who currently use at
best a form of universal access. such groups should not be disenfranchised
even further by our decisions.

Nii

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 10:22:08 -0800
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Who has standing

Jean-Michel and all Assembly members,

Jean-Michel Becar wrote:

> Kent and Nii,
>
> Please don't say that I said that developing countries doesn't have a stake
> in the DNS story , I just said that everybody who is aware of the DNSO and
> ICANN has at least 20 dollars in pocket to participate!!! That's something
> different. Because to be aware of ICANN you need at least a computer and a
> modem, isn't it?

  Well you don't necessarily have to own a computer and a modem, but have
access to one.  I make that distinction because some people share computers,
as do some small companies.  Many share internal networks as well.

>
>
> About the At Large : it costs nothing so no problem for everybody to
> participate. You still need a computer and a modem so what about people not
> having that materiel?????? and they have a stake because those are the
> future user and buyer of domain names !!!!!!

  Yes they do.

>
>
> But if we need resources to build a DNSO GA membership structure, MAY BE we
> will need some money and I think 20$ is reasonable and we can also study the
> case of people not having the money for example people coming from
> developing countries but IMHO I don't think that people who don't have 20$
> really care about the DNSO -- that's different of they don't have a stake --
> because those people are first looking for food, water, or how to make their
> lands productive before to go to buy a computer and a modem !!!

  Well people that don't have $20 to spare, may still care about the DNS and the

internet as a whole, to include the DNSO.

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kent Crispin [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 12:41 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [ga] Who has standing
>
> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:47:52AM +1300, Joop Teernstra wrote:
> > >
> > Nii is absolutely right.
>
> Indeed he is.
>
> > There are many people without computers who participate on the Net.  They
> > have the right to be at large members in ICANN.
> >
> > But these are largely not the people who register Domains or  have
> > otherwise a stake in the DNS to justify their membership of the DNSO GA.
>
> People who don't have domain names clearly have a stake in the DNS,
> because they will get domain names in the future.  For example, policies
> that led to domain names costing hundreds of dollars each have vastly
> different consequences than policies that lead to domain names costing a
> dollar.  By your reasoning developing countries that currently have very
> few domain names don't have any stake in the DNS, and can therefore be
> ignored.  That is patently false.
>
> --
> Kent Crispin                               "Do good, and you'll be
> [email-masked]                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
> --
> This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
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Regards,

- --
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman INEGroup (Over 95k members strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-447-1894
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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Date: Wed,  1 Mar 2000 19:20:59 +0100 (MET)
From: "Roberto Gaetano" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Who has standing

Jean-Michel,

>Please don't say that I said that developing countries doesn't have a 
stake
>in the DNS story , I just said that everybody who is aware of the DNSO 
and
>ICANN has at least 20 dollars in pocket to participate!!! That's 
something
>different. Because to be aware of ICANN you need at least a computer 
and a
>modem, isn't it?

Not necessarily true.

You don't need to "own" a computer, you just need to "have access to" a 
computer and a modem (and the telephone line behind that, which may well
 be sometimes *the real problem* in countries with a different 
development model).

Don't misunderstand me, I believe that the vast majority (if not the 
totality) of the people that are participating *here and now* to the 
debate over ICANN *do have* the $20, but I think that it is one of the 
roles of ICANN (and therefore of its Supporting Organizations) not to 
institutionalize this barreer.

Regards
Roberto
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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:42:10 -0800
From: Jeff Williams <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Re: [IFWP] Re: I have no idea what this is - Forwarded mail....

Joe and all,

  I don't know whom this "Bill Jeffries" person is, but he is using a
free E-Mail account from USA.COM yet he provides no SIG file
giving any indication as to whom he may be or what affiliation(s)
he may have.  I also find no listing for him anywhere with that E-Mail
address.  GIven he is using "INEGroup" as his user ID, I find this
a bit strange, he is not on our membership list BTW.

!Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:

> i'm innocent.  it has nothing to do with me. what a joke, a year ago -
> people were complaining that I didn't exist, then we had Shaw of the ITU
> claim we were spies for NSI, and now people are claiming stuff belongs to
> me.  And let's not forget the fact that i'm the most spoken of person in
> some newsgroups - some of which I have no membership in - like the
> BWG.  Will there be no end to this rampant speculation.
>
> As the very lovely Ben Edleman would say - oy!
>
> Regards
> Joe Baptista
>
> On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Bill Jeffries wrote:
>
> > Nonsense, Gary.  It's an extract from the HTTP access log for Baptista's
> > Mubarak page.
> >
> > On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:30:09 -0600, "Gary Peake" wrote:
> > >On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:37:42 -0500, "!Dr. Joe Baptista" <[email-masked]>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > >I got this really weird message - All it says is Woof Woof and then
> > >there's a bunch of domain names/host names attached.
> > >
> > >Now the question I have is why?  Im posting it here because netsol is
> > >listed, there's the australian goverment and zintrain of harvard and
> > >visa.  Makes me nervous when I get this sort of stuff.  Alot of key
> > >players are listed - so have attached the file.
> > >
> > >Any ideas?
> >
> > I have NO inside knowledge but I can give you a good guess if it came to
> > you anonymously ...
> >
> > Being a beta tester/developer, I have seen things like this circulating
> > before. Several banks were recently warned and failed to heed the fact that
> > they were listed on just such a list. 5 days later, they were all hacked.
> >
> > Yahoo, et al were also listed on such a list a couple of weeks ago.
> >
> > Some of the computers on the list were computers used to do the hacking,
> > others were targets.
> >
> > The "word" on the nets is that the DOS attacks and what have you are simply
> > a warning that the system is severely broken and no one is fixing it. That
> > is merely scuttlebutt and I do not even remember where or when I heard that
> > (for all you "official" people watching this list).
> >
> > Hopefully, eventually, they will realize that they are hurting many
> > innocent people when they do those types of things or they will all get
> > caught.
> >
> > In the meantime, I would warn someone if a list like that came to me.
> >
> > But, be prepared to be ignored, laughed at, bally-hooed, and then AFTER THE
> > FACT get more attention than you ever dreamed of wanting if it is what I
> > think it is.
> >
> > Someone who got or saw just such a list was the one I think I heard this
> > all from. At 47, I don't play those games, nor do I pay much attention. I
> > have my own firewall set-up and rely on that to protect what needs to be
> > protected. I think I heard that on one of the alt. newsgroups.
> >
> > Good luck Joe. Seems someone may be trying to use you as a messenger.
> >
> > I hope they listen to you.
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
> > Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001
> >

Regards,

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Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman INEGroup (Over 95k members strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail [email-masked]
Contact Number:  972-447-1894
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208

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End of GA-DIGEST V1 #16
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