Subject: GA-DIGEST V1 #6
From: [email-masked] (GA-DIGEST)
To: [email-masked]

GA-DIGEST          Friday, February 18 2000          Volume 01 : Number 006

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:09:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "!Dr. Joe Baptista" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Use of "loon"

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Dave Crocker wrote:

> Well done, indeed!  An excellent motivator for those seeking to provide 
> real and meaningful input to the ICANN process.

I agree with you it's all so very unfortunate.  But a clear example that
an assembly that does not govern itself and is imposed on by tyrrany -
does not work.

I think we need some roberts rules of order to replace our loony rules.

Regards
Joe baptista

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:14:18 -0500 (EST)
From: "!Dr. Joe Baptista" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Re: [ga-full] Use of "loon"

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, William X. Walsh wrote:

> Interesting to see someone talk about Tyranny of the Majority, because that's
> whats being setup for the so called "IDNO" contituency, who can vote out anyone
> the 50% +1 do not like or agree with.

So - does that mean the IDNO is ganging up on you?  50% + 1 sounds alot
like the english and french in Canada having their annual spat.

Regards
Joe Baptista

> 
> On 17-Feb-2000 Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> > Tyranny of the majority.   How to silence dissent. 
> > That would suffice to get even me to leave the list.  (Not to mention all
> > the noise traffic it would generate).
> > 
> > The point of protecting dissenting voices is exactly that they are
> > unpopular.  Popular voices don't require protection.
> > 
> > On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Alex Kamantauskas wrote:
> > 
> >> 
> >>  How about the following process:
> >> 
> >>  SAA receives a complaint.  SAA announces the complaint, and issues a
> >>  request wherein each member of the list (if they so wish) sends in a
> >>  'yea' or 'nay' vote.  At the end of an established period (say, 24 or 48
> >>  hours), SAA counts the votes.  If the 'yea' outweigh the 'nay', sanctions
> >>  are imposed.
> >> 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > A. Michael Froomkin   |    Professor of Law    |   [email-masked]
> > U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA
> > +1 (305) 284-4285  |  +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)  |  http://www.law.tm
> >                         -->It's warm here.<--
> > 
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> 
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:32:05 +0100 (MET)
From: "Roberto Gaetano" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Re: [ga-full] Use of "loon"

Chris,

You wrote:

>Once we've done that, we then all go home happy, and listen to
>the conference call of the rest of the Internet community laughing
>at this whole joke, while ICANN makes a pronouncement that there
>is wide community consensus to ban domain names altogether. In
>case anyone hasn't noticed, ICANN has been making decisions
>independent of this illustrious body since day-one. We are,
>in a word, irrelevant.
>

Agree.

But the real question is: "How to make this illustrious body more 
relevant".

BTW, if you were ICANN, would you involve this list in the decisions? 
And if yes, why? Is there anything that has been discussed on this list 
of any use to provide input to ICANN's policy on Domain Names?

Regards
Roberto
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:37:22 +1300
From: Joop Teernstra <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] IDNO list chair election results

Since aspersions were cast in this forum on the integrity of the IDNO
Polls after a few hours of voting, (WXW, "Voter fraud in IDNO Chair
elections") I promised you the full results.

They also go some way to prove that the IDNO is far from "dead".

Out of 29 on the discussion list voters' roll (as opposed to the 162 voters
membership- wide)  17 cast their (multiple) votes. 

Dinesh Nair, a software engineer from Malaysia was elected with 11 votes. 
Wiliam Walsh' candidate, Andy Gardner from New Zealand, received 7 votes.
Dominic Baron, also from New Zealand received 5 votes.

The List Chair's role is to guide the discussion on the List Assembly and
ensure that motions from the list members will proceed to list resolutions
or to a vote either by the listmembers or by the entire membership.
The previous Chair was Arnold Gehring, who, as the sole candidate, was
elected by open roll call vote on the list.  

The Chair holds the job for 3 months. It's pretty demanding, as you can
well imagine.  :->

- --Joop Teernstra LL.M.--  , founder  of
the Cyberspace Association,
the constituency for Individual Domain Name Owners
http://www.idno.org  (or direct:) 
http://www.democracy.org.nz/idno/

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:33:45 +1300
From: Joop Teernstra <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Re: [ga-full] Use of "loon"

At 16:14 17/02/00 -0500, Alex Kamantauskas wrote:
>
> How about the following process:
>
> SAA receives a complaint.  SAA announces the complaint, and issues a
> request wherein each member of the list (if they so wish) sends in a
> 'yea' or 'nay' vote.  At the end of an established period (say, 24 or 48
> hours), SAA counts the votes.  If the 'yea' outweigh the 'nay', sanctions
> are imposed.
>

Penalties by vote, rather than by subjective judgement of one moderator is
also the process the IDNO listmembers have agreed upon. However, it has not
yet been tested in practice.  For fairness, the listmember being complained
against should have a chance to defend, or apologize, on the same website
where the complaint is published.

Yes, it can amount to "Tyranny of the Majority" but if the stark choice is
between tyranny of the majority or the tyranny of  hecklers, fairness give
more weight to the majority. 
Anyway, those who feel strongly about the protection given to dissenters,
will vote in accordance with their conscience. In a fair-minded group,
there is little to worry about.

Such voting should really only take place when long-term removal is at stake.
And... you need a voters' roll, before such a vote can have any legitimacy.

- --Joop Teernstra LL.M.--  , founder  of
the Cyberspace Association,
the constituency for Individual Domain Name Owners
http://www.idno.org  (or direct:) 
http://www.democracy.org.nz/idno/

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:57:02 -0500 (EST)
From: "!Dr. Joe Baptista" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] Re: [ga-full] Use of "loon"

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Roberto Gaetano wrote:

> But the real question is: "How to make this illustrious body more 
> relevant".

resign.

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:03:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "!Dr. Joe Baptista" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] IDNO list chair election results

Congratulations Dinesh Nair - I may just join again - the list that is -
we already are a member in the idno.  I have faith in Dinesh Nair, and if
I do join again - my main objective will be increasing the idno membership
rolls significantly.

Regards
Joe Baptista

P.s. - how do you feel about increasing idno membership rolls - is that a
priority Dinesh?

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Joop Teernstra wrote:

> Since aspersions were cast in this forum on the integrity of the IDNO
> Polls after a few hours of voting, (WXW, "Voter fraud in IDNO Chair
> elections") I promised you the full results.
> 
> They also go some way to prove that the IDNO is far from "dead".
> 
> Out of 29 on the discussion list voters' roll (as opposed to the 162 voters
> membership- wide)  17 cast their (multiple) votes. 
> 
> Dinesh Nair, a software engineer from Malaysia was elected with 11 votes. 
> Wiliam Walsh' candidate, Andy Gardner from New Zealand, received 7 votes.
> Dominic Baron, also from New Zealand received 5 votes.
> 
> The List Chair's role is to guide the discussion on the List Assembly and
> ensure that motions from the list members will proceed to list resolutions
> or to a vote either by the listmembers or by the entire membership.
> The previous Chair was Arnold Gehring, who, as the sole candidate, was
> elected by open roll call vote on the list.  
> 
> The Chair holds the job for 3 months. It's pretty demanding, as you can
> well imagine.  :->
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Joop Teernstra LL.M.--  , founder  of
> the Cyberspace Association,
> the constituency for Individual Domain Name Owners
> http://www.idno.org  (or direct:) 
> http://www.democracy.org.nz/idno/
> 
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> 

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:43:19 EST
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [ga] The GA still cannot prevent "denied posters" from posting to GA list

Just look at the "To" header.  Not just "BCC" but to the entire list.
What is going on here?

In a message dated 02/17/2000 8:28:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dnsipv6 
writes:
> Subj: Re: [ga] Warning: [email-masked] is sending directly
>  Date:    02/17/2000 8:28:27 PM Eastern Standard Time
>  From:    <A HREF="mailto:Dnsipv6">Dnsipv6</A>
>  To:  <A HREF="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:56:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "William X. Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] IDNO list chair election results

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 17-Feb-2000 Joop Teernstra wrote:
> Since aspersions were cast in this forum on the integrity of the IDNO
> Polls after a few hours of voting, (WXW, "Voter fraud in IDNO Chair
> elections") I promised you the full results.
> 
> They also go some way to prove that the IDNO is far from "dead".

No, really, they don't.  

> Out of 29 on the discussion list voters' roll (as opposed to the 162 voters
> membership- wide)  17 cast their (multiple) votes. 
>  
> Dinesh Nair, a software engineer from Malaysia was elected with 11 votes. 
> Wiliam Walsh' candidate, Andy Gardner from New Zealand, received 7 votes.
> Dominic Baron, also from New Zealand received 5 votes.

The vote was using an unorthodox and flawed voting system that Joop decided by
fiat would be used.  He always does this, selecting the voting method that
gives him the most likelihood of getting his way.

This is just one of a series of decisions (and there have been a slew of them
recently) that Joop has decided by fiat.

> The Chair holds the job for 3 months. It's pretty demanding, as you can
> well imagine.  :->

Yes, especially when the Founder is as manipulative of the Chair as he has been
in the past.

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DSo Networks  http://dso.net/
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:05:39 -0500 (EST)
From: "!Dr. Joe Baptista" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] GA Rules don't go far enough

Well - i was extensively involved in politics, and any politics i see here
is small patatoes.  And the electoral fraud and dirty tricks - petty at
best.

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 [email-masked] wrote:

> Joe and everybody else,
> 
>   Amateur politicians and fool are interchangeable capacities more often
> than not, Joe.  But of course you already know this.  Just thought
> I would make it a bit more clear. :)
> 
> David "Dude" Jenson
> 
> In a message dated 2/17/00 2:19:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> [email-masked] writes:
> 
> << No one in this place has a clue when it comes to politics.  Amature
>  politicians indeed.  No - I don't think so.  This is more a collection of
>  fools - and I feel a bit like the Master of Fools.  Someone has to be king
>  of the castle and it seems i'm the only one who can call this place and
>  the icann process a farce - so i guess the crown is mine.
>  
>  Regards
>  Joe >>
> 

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:39:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Joe Kelsey <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Use of "loon"

Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes:
 > So far, every single message I have had suggests that calling Joe
 > Baptista a loon is language that should cause the utterer's
 > suspension from the list.
 > 
 > If that's a common opinion on the list, I will modify my judgment
 > criteria accordingly.
 > 
 > Note that the revised judgment criteria will also include a number of
 > other words formerly tolerated; they are (in my judgment) weaker than
 > "horse-shitters", but stronger than "loon".
 > 
 > Is that OK with everyone?

I believe that "loon" is a perfectly acceptable word to use in polite
conversation.  Do not ban William for its use.

/Joe
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:43:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "William X. Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ga] The GA still cannot prevent "denied posters" from posti

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

He puts that in the To Header, but he also uses BCC.

BCC is not something you can see in the email, since it is a blind carbon copy.

However, you can check in the message headers and see that the message did not
come into AOL from the dnso.org server.

I know this, because I deny emails at the mail server from the AOL mail servers
that originate from that identity, but if "his" messages come from the DNSO
server, then they get in.    His messages did not reach me.  They didn't come
from the dnso.org servers.   Since this person did not have your consent to
email him, and he sent out multiple bulk copies of his messages, this qualified
under the AOL TOS regarding mass unsolicited email.  It does not have to be an
advertisement to violate their TOS.

[email-masked] and [email-masked] will deal with the complaints, and I
suggest you make them.

On 18-Feb-2000 [email-masked] wrote:
> Just look at the "To" header.  Not just "BCC" but to the entire list.
> What is going on here?
> 
> In a message dated 02/17/2000 8:28:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dnsipv6 
> writes:
>> Subj: Re: [ga] Warning: [email-masked] is sending directly
>>  Date:    02/17/2000 8:28:27 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>  From:    <A HREF="mailto:Dnsipv6">Dnsipv6</A>
>>  To:  <A HREF="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>
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> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:04:12 -0800
From: "Roeland M.J. Meyer" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Outta here!

If this is the best of the GA then there is no value-add for me ... I'm
outta here.

ciao.

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:09:49 -0600
From: Andy Gardner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] IDNO list chair election results

>Congratulations Dinesh Nair - I may just join again - the list that is -
>we already are a member in the idno.  I have faith in Dinesh Nair, and if
>I do join again - my main objective will be increasing the idno membership
>rolls significantly.
>
>Regards
>Joe Baptista
>
>P.s. - how do you feel about increasing idno membership rolls - is that a
>priority Dinesh?

Increasing the membership of the IDNO was one of the aims of the original
steering committee. unfortunately, when we were about to take the first
step towards doing this (moving the web site to a better connected server,
dropping ColdFusion, and ramping the site up. Joop "El Presidente" Ternstra
saw tat hew would lose absolute control of the IDNO, so kneecapped the
Steering Committee.

Later on, when we tried to get the mailing lists moved (again to a better
connected site and a better system), and when it bevcame apparent that the
best option was not with Joop's innner circle, El Presidente kneecapped one
of the committee members charged with investigating the options and got the
lists moved to a host where his buddy controlled it.

Some things change, some things stay the same.

Whne was the last month the the IDNO membership _increased_ rather than
_decreased_? We'll probably never know, as Joop has total control.

Andrew P. Gardner

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:58:27 -0500 (EST)
From: "!Dr. Joe Baptista" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] IDNO list chair election results

That's all very unfortunate - the IDNO could be an excellent
organization.  Do you think that with Dinesh things will change?

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Andy Gardner wrote:

> >Congratulations Dinesh Nair - I may just join again - the list that is -
> >we already are a member in the idno.  I have faith in Dinesh Nair, and if
> >I do join again - my main objective will be increasing the idno membership
> >rolls significantly.
> >
> >Regards
> >Joe Baptista
> >
> >P.s. - how do you feel about increasing idno membership rolls - is that a
> >priority Dinesh?
> 
> Increasing the membership of the IDNO was one of the aims of the original
> steering committee. unfortunately, when we were about to take the first
> step towards doing this (moving the web site to a better connected server,
> dropping ColdFusion, and ramping the site up. Joop "El Presidente" Ternstra
> saw tat hew would lose absolute control of the IDNO, so kneecapped the
> Steering Committee.
> 
> Later on, when we tried to get the mailing lists moved (again to a better
> connected site and a better system), and when it bevcame apparent that the
> best option was not with Joop's innner circle, El Presidente kneecapped one
> of the committee members charged with investigating the options and got the
> lists moved to a host where his buddy controlled it.
> 
> Some things change, some things stay the same.
> 
> Whne was the last month the the IDNO membership _increased_ rather than
> _decreased_? We'll probably never know, as Joop has total control.
> 
> 
> Andrew P. Gardner
> 
> Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
> 
> 
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:59:46 -0500 (EST)
From: "!Dr. Joe Baptista" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Outta here!

Another one bytes the dust - another plonk for the GA.  It was good to
have you while you lasted Roeland.

Regards
Joe Baptista

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Roeland M.J. Meyer wrote:

> If this is the best of the GA then there is no value-add for me ... I'm
> outta here.
> 
> ciao.
> 
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:29:27 -0600
From: Andy Gardner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] IDNO list chair election results

>That's all very unfortunate - the IDNO could be an excellent
>organization.  Do you think that with Dinesh things will change?

I'd like to think so, but I doubt it.

Things only get done if they suit Joop's vision of the IDNO.

Take the latest election, for example. Joop decided the method (votes for
multiple people, no weighting). Joop later decided to add two more voting
topics, without consulting with _anyone_.

Joop _is_ the IDNO.

Anyone that dissents with Joop's view, or even could possibly become (in
Joops opinion) a dissenter, is gagged, thrown off committees, or if there
is an emergency, an entire committee is disbanded.

Joop's personal view of events is placed on the IDNO website and contrued
to be "the way things happened", via selective editing of what appears.

It's a shame, but as it stands now, the IDNO is a dead duck.

If the IDNO is going to make progress, Joop is going to have to step away
completely and let the organisation mould itself. Unfortunately, history to
date shows that Joop isn't prepared to do that. And likewise, there are a
load of former and potential members that won't touch the IDNO with a
bargepole while Joop retains ultimate power.

Andrew P. Gardner

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:15:19 +0100
From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Proposal: List behavior discussions on a separat list.

At 22:20 17.02.00 +0100, Roberto Gaetano wrote:
>Alf,
>
>I have tried several time to launch the idea of more focused, smaller,
>lists, in addition to the main GA list, but there's no enthusiasm so
>far.

I am enthusiastic!

>In practical terms, it will be (almost) impossible to do what you
>propose "automatically". The only possibility is to create a separate
>list, and invite people to discuss the matter over there.
>
>Do you think it will work? :<(

The only way to see if anyone will come to "that party" is to create the 
list and ask people to come.

The other question is whether or not this will help anything on the main GA 
list.

                 Harald

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:20:30 +0100
From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Suspension of posting rights for William Walsh and Joe Baptista

There has been a complaint by Joe Baptista that William Walsh refers to
a list member as a "loon".
There has also been a complaint by William Walsh that Joe Baptista refers
to some list members as "evil abusive people".

The list monitor is in considerable doubt about the reasonableness of the
complaints, but the two complainants seem to agree in principle that if one 
complaint is to be actioned, the other should be also.

The question of whether the statement complained about is true or not seems
not to be regarded as a factor in the complaints.

Both are blocked from the list for 2 weeks, until Friday, March 3.

                  Harald Tveit Alvestrand
                  List monitor, GA list

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[email-masked]

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:49:13 -0500 (EST)
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga-full] Re: [ga] Proposal: List behavior discussions on a separat list.

I propose using the slashdot engine.  ICANN resists the use of WWW
interfaces for the understandable reason that they discriminate against
people whose limited resources require them to use slow links.  A private
list does not have this constraint.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:

> At 22:20 17.02.00 +0100, Roberto Gaetano wrote:
> >Alf,
> >
> >I have tried several time to launch the idea of more focused, smaller,
> >lists, in addition to the main GA list, but there's no enthusiasm so
> >far.
> 
> I am enthusiastic!
> 
> >In practical terms, it will be (almost) impossible to do what you
> >propose "automatically". The only possibility is to create a separate
> >list, and invite people to discuss the matter over there.
> >
> >Do you think it will work? :<(
> 
> The only way to see if anyone will come to "that party" is to create the 
> list and ask people to come.
> 
> The other question is whether or not this will help anything on the main GA 
> list.
> 
>                  Harald
> 
> --
> Harald Tveit Alvestrand, EDB Maxware, Norway
> [email-masked]
> 
> --
> This message was passed to you via the [email-masked] list.
> Send mail to [email-masked] to unsubscribe
> ("unsubscribe ga-full" in the body of the message).
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> 
> 

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A. Michael Froomkin   |    Professor of Law    |   [email-masked]
U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA
+1 (305) 284-4285  |  +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)  |  http://www.law.tm
                        -->It's warm here.<--

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 05:58:57 -0800
From: "Josh Elliott" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Purpose of GA

Can someone tell me the purpose of the GA?  It seems to me that the people
involved in the DNSO are represented by constituencies.  Any reason the GA
was formed?  Obviously, not much of anything gets accomplished on this list.

Just curious,

Josh

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:05:15 -0500
From: "Ben Edelman" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] REMINDER: Names Council Webcast Now In Progress

Today's Names Council meeting is now in progress, available via webcast from
<http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/icann/dnso>.

Archived recordings will be available on the same site after the conclusion
of the teleconference.

Ben Edelman
Berkman Center for Internet and Society
Harvard Law School

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:45:26 +0100 (MET)
From: "Roberto Gaetano" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ga] Purpose of GA

Hi, Josh.

You wrote:

>Can someone tell me the purpose of the GA?  It seems to me that the 
people
>involved in the DNSO are represented by constituencies.  Any reason the
 GA
>was formed?

In principle, to allow for a forum where all people involved in the DNSO
 could interact (i.e. people that were working in different 
Constituencies and Working Groups, and also people that were not part of
 any constituency).

>  Obviously, not much of anything gets accomplished on this list.
>

The GA is not only this mailing list, but the set of all people involved
 in the DNSO. This includes the subscribers to this list, but also those
 who are not subscribers to this list, but active otherwise 
(Constituencies, Working Groups, etc.).

Even if this list would be discontinued - which I doubt, BTW - the GA as
 concept of "DNSO Membership" will remain.

Regards
Roberto
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:00:45 -0800
From: Vittore Casarosa <[email-masked]>
Subject: [ga] Unsubscribe

unsubscribe
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End of GA-DIGEST V1 #6
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